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Alternate History Navies (Great Powers)

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Delta Force

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Tuesday, March 13th 2012, 3:55am

Alternate History Navies (Great Powers)

I am making an alternate history nation simulation game. One of the major changes in the timeline is that the postwar naval treaty allows for larger ships than what our timeline's Washington Naval Treaty allowed, and also a lot more of them. I hope to have the big gun ship still queen of the seas in 1950 but still with an aviation technology level of around 1940-1945.

I was wondering if some of the people on Wesworld would be interested in helping out with designing some of the warships for the game and giving a few pointers as well. All the great powers apart from the US and CSA need ships from ~1920 to 1950 (game start) while the US and CSA also need ships from the early dreadnought era to 1950.

Here is the general idea of the game:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussi…ad.php?t=230947

Here is the world map (click to enlarge):


Here is the Stockholm Naval Treaty (the game's version of the Washington Naval Treaty) with the ships of the recognized great powers:

Quoted

Stockholm Naval Treaty

Battleships
Battleships (defined as a ship with a standard tonnage greater than 27,500 long tons and an armament of 11 inches or greater) are limited to a standard tonnage of no more than 40,000 long tons, with an armament no greater than 16.5 inches*. No ships with a tonnage or armament exceeding the above limits are to be constructed, sold, or delivered to a foreign power, and all ships built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

*Exceptions: Signatories may field no more than two ships with a tonnage no greater than 50,000 long tons and an armament no greater than 18 inches.

Battleship Tonnage Limits:

British Empire (Australasia, Canada, Great Britain): 500,000 long tons
- HMS Dreadnought (1906) [Dreadnought class] = 18,120 long tons
- HMS Bellerophon (1909) [Bellerophon class] = 18,800 long tons
- HMS Superb (1909) [Bellerophon class] = 18,800 long tons
- HMS Temeraire (1909) [Bellerophon class] = 18,800 long tons
- HMS St. Vincent (1909) [St. Vincent class] = 19,560 long tons
- HMS Collingwood (1910) [St. Vincent class] = 19,560 long tons
- HMS Neptune (1911) [Neptune class] = 19,680 long tons
- HMS Colossus (1911) [Colossus class] = 20,225 long tons
- HMS Hercules (1911) [Colossus class] = 20,225 long tons
- HMS Orion (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS Monarch (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS Conqueror (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS Thunderer (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS King George V (1912) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Centurion (1913) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Ajax (1913) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Iron Duke (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Marlborough (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Benbow (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Emperor of India (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Canada (1915) [Canada class] = 28,600 long tons
- HMS Eagle (1915) [Canada class] = 28,600 long tons
- HMS Queen Elizabeth (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Warspite (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Barham (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Valiant (1916) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Malaya (1916) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Revenge (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Royal Sovereign (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Royal Oak (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Resolution (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Ramillies (1917) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
Total: 679,670 long tons

Germany: 500,000 long tons
- SMS Nassau (1909) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Westfalen (1909) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Rheinland (1910) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Posen (1910) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Helgoland (1911) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Ostfriesland (1911) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Thüringen (1911) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Oldenburg (1912) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Kaiser (1912) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS Friedrich der Grosse (1912) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS Kaiserin (1913) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS Prinzregent Luitpold (1913) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS König Albert (1913) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS König (1913) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Grosser Kurfürst (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Markgraf (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Kronprinz (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Bayern (1912) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Baden (1912) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
Total: 488,840 long tons

United States: 340,000 long tons
- N/A

Japan: 340,000 long tons
- IJN FusM (1914) [FusM class] = 29,330 long tons
- IJN Yamashiro (1914) [FusM class] = 29,330 long tons
- IJN Ise (1916) [Ise class] = 29,990 long tons
- IJN Hykga (1918) [Ise class] = 29,990 long tons
- IJN Nagato (1920) [Nagato class] = 32,720 long tons
- IJN Mutsu (1921) [Nagato class] = 32,720 long tons
Total: 184,080 long tons

Russia: 260,000 long tons
- Gangut (1915) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Petropavlovsk (1915) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Sevastopol (1914) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Poltava (1914) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Imperatritsa Mariya (1915) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperatritsa Ekaterina Velikaya (1915) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperator Aleksandr III (1917) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperator Nikolai I (1920) [Imperator Nikolai I class] = 31,880 long tons
Total: 199,170 long tons

France: 180,000 long tons
- Jean Bart (1911) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- Courbet (1911) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- Paris (1912) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- France (1912) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- Provence (1913) [Bretange class] = 23,560 long tons
- Bretange (1913) [Bretange class] = 23,560 long tons
- Lorraine (1913) [Bretange class] = 23,560 long tons
Total: 163,080 long tons

Austria: 180,000 tons
- SMS Virbius Unitis (1911) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Tegetthoff (1912) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Prinz Eugen (1912) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Szent István (1914) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- RN Andrea Doria (1916) [Andrea Doria class] = 22,960 long tons
- RN Caio Duilio (1916) [Andrea Doria class] = 22,960 long tons
Total = 125,920 long tons

Confederacy: 180,000 tons
- N/A

--------------------------------------------------

Battlecruisers
Battlecruisers (defined as a ship with a standard tonnage greater than 27,500 tons, an armament of 11 inches or greater, and a top speed no less than 25 knots) are limited to a standard tonnage of no more than 40,000 tons, with an armament no greater than 16.5 inches, and a top speed no less than 25 knots*. No ships with a tonnage or armament exceeding the above limits are to be constructed, sold, or delivered to a foreign power, and all ships built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

*Exceptions: Signatories may field no more than two ships with a tonnage no greater than 50,000 tons, an armament no greater than 16.5 inches, and a top speed no less than 25 knots.

Battlecruiser Tonnage Limits:

British Empire (Australasia, Canada, Great Britain): 260,000 long tons
- HMS Inflexible (1907) [Invincible class] = 17,250 long tons
- HMS Indomitable (1907) [Invincible class] = 17,250 long tons
- HMS New Zealand (1912) [Indefatigable class] = 18,500 long tons
- HMAS Australia (1913) [Indefatigable class] = 18,500 long tons
- HMS Lion (1912) [Lion class] = 26,270 long tons
- HMS Princess Royal (1912) [Lion class] = 26,270 long tons
- HMS Tiger (1914) [Tiger class] = 28,500 long tons
- HMS Renown (1916) [Renown class] = 27,200 long tons
- HMS Repulse (1916) [Renown class] = 27,200 long tons
- HMS Hood (1920) [Admiral class] = 42,000 long tons
Total: 248,950 tons

Germany: 260,000 tons
- SMS Von der Tann (1910) [Von der Tann class] = 21,000 long tons
- SMS Moltke (1911) [Moltke class] = 25,000 long tons
- SMS Seydlitz (1913) [Seydlitz class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Derfflinger (1914) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
- SMS Lützow (1915) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
- SMS Hindenburg (1917) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
Total: 166,200 long tons

United States: 180,000 long tons
- N/A

Japan: 180,000 long tons
- IJN KongM (1913) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Hiei (1914) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Kirishima (1915) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Haruna (1915) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
Total: 110,000 long tons

Russia: 140,000 long tons
- Borodino (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Izmail (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Kinburn (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Navarin (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
Total: 130,000 tons

France: 100,000 long tons
- N/A

Austria: 100,000 long tons
- N/A

Confederacy: 100,000 long tons
- N/A

--------------------------------------------------

Large Heavy Cruisers
Large heavy cruisers are ships with a standard tonnage between 10,000 and 27,500 tons and an armament of 11 inches or greater. All large heavy cruisers built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

Large Heavy Cruiser Tonnage Limits:

British Empire (Australasia, Canada, Great Britain): 120,000 long tons
N/A

Germany: 120,000 long tons
N/A

United States: 90,000 long tons
N/A

Japan: 90,000 long tons
N/A

Russia: 90,000 long tons
N/A

France: 60,000 long tons
N/A

Austria: 60,000 long tons
N/A

Confederacy: 60,000 long tons
N/A

parador

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Tuesday, March 13th 2012, 9:17am

Looks very interesting !!!!

Vukovlad

Me too !!!

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Tuesday, March 13th 2012, 3:44pm

Looks interesting

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, March 13th 2012, 11:26pm

Reminds me of WesWorld in many way....although that tonnage allotment is excessive.

Have you given thought to the problem of costs for building and maintaining such a fleet?

Brockpaine

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Tuesday, March 13th 2012, 11:40pm

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
....although that tonnage allotment is excessive.

Quite. In my personal opinion, I'd suggest merging the battlecruiser and battleship tonnage limits. Though I do like the idea of the large heavy cruiser category.

The British would also never agree to a treaty that allowed the German Navy equal limits. It would be an overturning of a century and a half of standing British political and naval doctrine.

ShinRa_Inc

Mad Scientist at Work

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Wednesday, March 14th 2012, 12:57am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
The British would also never agree to a treaty that allowed the German Navy equal limits. It would be an overturning of a century and a half of standing British political and naval doctrine.


Unless WWI turned out drastically different. Which doesn't appear to be the case, however.

Delta Force

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Wednesday, March 14th 2012, 6:37am

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Reminds me of WesWorld in many way....although that tonnage allotment is excessive.

Have you given thought to the problem of costs for building and maintaining such a fleet?


I actually based the numbers off of the Washington Naval Treaty, but upped the individual ship tonnage and decided to let a few ships carry 18 inch guns. Clearly building and maintaining a fleet consisting entirely of treaty ships will be expensive, time consuming, and complex. It is likely that much like our own timeline many super-dreadnoughts will continue in service for decades after World War I.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
....although that tonnage allotment is excessive.

Quite. In my personal opinion, I'd suggest merging the battlecruiser and battleship tonnage limits. Though I do like the idea of the large heavy cruiser category.

The British would also never agree to a treaty that allowed the German Navy equal limits. It would be an overturning of a century and a half of standing British political and naval doctrine.


I was considering merging the battleship and battlecruiser category together since it makes no sense for the French and Austrians. There most likely engagement area is already in the Mediterranean and guns and armor are more useful for them. They would not need to do scouting as much as actually fight each other.

As for the Commonwealth limits, might it make sense to have a special category for the Canadian and Australian navies for ships that only serve in the defense role in those countries (going overseas only for repairs in the UK perhaps)?

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
The British would also never agree to a treaty that allowed the German Navy equal limits. It would be an overturning of a century and a half of standing British political and naval doctrine.


Unless WWI turned out drastically different. Which doesn't appear to be the case, however.


In this timeline's World War I the Central Powers are able to win the continental conflict (the US being a pro-Central Powers neutral and the CSA being a pro-Entente neutral too weak to directly intervene without Entente aid). The UK gets off in quite a good situation after the war, only giving up a few African colonies to the Germans and Austrians and otherwise not owing any reparations or being obligated to do anything else. France and Italy end up in a far worse spot.

HoOmAn

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Wednesday, March 14th 2012, 8:53am

What's the date of signature of your Stockholm treaty?

I am missing SMS Sachsen in the German BB ranking. Why?

I am missing Goeben in the German BC ranking (where she should be if the Germans won), why?

If the war went well for the Germans, why is there no SMS Mackensen?

On the other hand, the British built the Renowns (one wonders if the reasons that sparked them OTL were given in your timeline) but only one Hood. What happened to the other Admirals? What happened to the Is etc.?

In general, comparing British and German ship lists seems to indicate there was no Jutland. Though some British ships are missing like INvincible, Lützow is still there. So how did the naval war turn out in your universe?

What happened to Amagi, Akagi, Kaga and other Japanese capital ship projects in your world?

Delta Force

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Thursday, March 15th 2012, 7:32am

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
What's the date of signature of your Stockholm treaty?

I am missing SMS Sachsen in the German BB ranking. Why?

I am missing Goeben in the German BC ranking (where she should be if the Germans won), why?

If the war went well for the Germans, why is there no SMS Mackensen?

On the other hand, the British built the Renowns (one wonders if the reasons that sparked them OTL were given in your timeline) but only one Hood. What happened to the other Admirals? What happened to the Is etc.?

In general, comparing British and German ship lists seems to indicate there was no Jutland. Though some British ships are missing like INvincible, Lützow is still there. So how did the naval war turn out in your universe?

What happened to Amagi, Akagi, Kaga and other Japanese capital ship projects in your world?


SMS Sachsen is an oversight, while SMS Goeben was commissioned into the Ottoman Navy. Lützow is also an oversight. To make things easy I went with the Jutland losses, since neither fleet was looking for another big fight after that battle.

As for the Japanese ship projects and other post war projects, I have not added them yet. I wanted to get a circa 1920 look at the fleets first heading into Stockholm. The Admiral class in game is actually historically accurate, all the Hood's sister ships were put on hold in 1917 pending a redesign to incorporate the lessons of Jutland and were later canceled. Seeing what later happened to Hood (the only ship in the fleet not to incorporate the lessons of Jutland and due for a refit in 1941 to do so), that was probably a good decision.

Delta Force

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Saturday, March 17th 2012, 4:11am

I merged the categories for battleships and battlecruisers and added ships from our timeline that were planned to be built before the Washington Naval Treaty was adopted. Obviously the British Empire has a large number of ships to divest itself of, I was wondering if you could give some input on if anyone would have been interested in purchasing some of the early dreadnoughts and battlecruisers shortly after the war, and also the new treaty layout.

Quoted

Stockholm Naval Treaty

Capital Ships
Capital ships (defined as a ship with a standard tonnage greater than 27,500 long tons and an armament of 11 inches or greater) are limited to a standard tonnage of no more than 40,000 long tons, with an armament no greater than 16.5 inches*. No ships with a tonnage or armament exceeding the above limits are to be constructed, sold, or delivered to a foreign power, and all ships built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

*Exceptions: Signatories may field the following number of ships with a tonnage no greater than 50,000 long tons and an armament no greater than 18 inches:
British Empire and its dominions: 6 ships
Germany: 6 ships
United States: 4 ships
Japan: 4 ships
Russia: 3 ships
France: 2 ships
Austria: 2 ships
Confederacy: 2 ships

The British Empire and its dominions are included together for purposes of this exception.

Capital Ship Tonnage Limits:

British Empire: 780,000 long tons
- HMS Dreadnought (1906) [Dreadnought class] = 18,120 long tons
- HMS Bellerophon (1909) [Bellerophon class] = 18,800 long tons
- HMS Superb (1909) [Bellerophon class] = 18,800 long tons
- HMS Temeraire (1909) [Bellerophon class] = 18,800 long tons
- HMS St. Vincent (1909) [St. Vincent class] = 19,560 long tons
- HMS Collingwood (1910) [St. Vincent class] = 19,560 long tons
- HMS Neptune (1911) [Neptune class] = 19,680 long tons
- HMS Colossus (1911) [Colossus class] = 20,225 long tons
- HMS Hercules (1911) [Colossus class] = 20,225 long tons
- HMS Orion (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS Monarch (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS Conqueror (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS Thunderer (1912) [Orion class] = 22,000 long tons
- HMS King George V (1912) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Centurion (1913) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Ajax (1913) [King George V class] = 23,000 long tons
- HMS Iron Duke (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Marlborough (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Benbow (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Emperor of India (1914) [Iron Duke class] = 25,000 long tons
- HMS Canada (1915) [Canada class] = 28,600 long tons
- HMS Eagle (1915) [Canada class] = 28,600 long tons
- HMS Queen Elizabeth (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Warspite (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Barham (1915) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Valiant (1916) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Malaya (1916) [Queen Elizabeth class] = 27,500 long tons
- HMS Revenge (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Royal Sovereign (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Royal Oak (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Resolution (1916) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- HMS Ramillies (1917) [Revenge class] = 28,000 long tons
- N3 A (1927) [N3 class] = 48,000 long tons
- N3 B (1927) [N3 class] = 48,000 long tons
-------------------------
- HMS Inflexible (1907) [Invincible class] = 17,250 long tons
- HMS Indomitable (1907) [Invincible class] = 17,250 long tons
- HMS New Zealand (1912) [Indefatigable class] = 18,500 long tons
- HMAS Australia (1913) [Indefatigable class] = 18,500 long tons
- HMS Hood (1920) [Admiral class] = 42,000 long tons
- G3 A (1925) [G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
- G3 B (1925) [G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
- G3 C (1925) [G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
- G3 D (1925) [G3 class] = 48,400 long tons
Total: 1,082,780 long tons

Germany: 780,000 long tons
- SMS Nassau (1909) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Westfalen (1909) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Rheinland (1910) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Posen (1910) [Nassau class] = 20,210 long tons
- SMS Helgoland (1911) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Ostfriesland (1911) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Thüringen (1911) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Oldenburg (1912) [Helgoland class] = 24,300 long tons
- SMS Kaiser (1912) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS Friedrich der Grosse (1912) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS Kaiserin (1913) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS Prinzregent Luitpold (1913) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS König Albert (1913) [Kaiser class] = 27,000 long tons
- SMS König (1913) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Grosser Kurfürst (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Markgraf (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Kronprinz (1914) [König class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Bayern (1912) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Baden (1912) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Sachsen (1919) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
- SMS Württemberg (1919) [Bayern class] = 31,700 long tons
-------------------------
- SMS Mackensen (1920) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Graf Spee (1919) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Prinz Eitel Friedrich (1920) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- SMS Fürst Bismarck (1920) [Mackensen class] = 31,000 long tons
- Ersatz Yorck (1919) [Ersatz Yorck class] = 33,500 long tons
Total: 709,740 long tons

United States: 520,000 long tons
- N/A

Japan: 520,000 long tons
- IJN FusM (1914) [FusM class] = 29,330 long tons
- IJN Yamashiro (1914) [FusM class] = 29,330 long tons
- IJN Ise (1916) [Ise class] = 29,990 long tons
- IJN Hykga (1918) [Ise class] = 29,990 long tons
- IJN Nagato (1920) [Nagato class] = 32,720 long tons
- IJN Mutsu (1921) [Nagato class] = 32,720 long tons
- IJN Tosa (1923) [Tosa class] = 39,900 long tons
- IJN Kaga (1922) [Tosa class] = 39,900 long tons
-------------------------
- IJN Amagi (1923) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Akagi (1923) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Atago (1924) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Takao (1924) [Amagi class] = 40,670 long tons
- IJN Kii (1928) [Number 13 class] = 47,500 long tons
- IJN Owari (1928) [Number 13 class] = 47,500 long tons
Total: 521,560 long tons

Russia: 390,000 long tons
- Gangut (1915) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Petropavlovsk (1915) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Sevastopol (1914) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Poltava (1914) [Gangut class] = 24,400 long tons
- Imperatritsa Mariya (1915) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperatritsa Ekaterina Velikaya (1915) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperator Aleksandr III (1917) [Imperatritsa Mariya class] = 23,410 long tons
- Imperator Nikolai I (1920) [Imperator Nikolai I class] = 31,880 long tons
-------------------------
- Borodino (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Izmail (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Kinburn (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
- Navarin (1920) [Borodino class] = 32,500 long tons
Total: 329,170 tons

France: 260,000 long tons
- Jean Bart (1911) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- Courbet (1911) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- Paris (1912) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- France (1912) [Courbet class] = 23,100 long tons
- Provence (1913) [Bretagne class] = 23,560 long tons
- Bretagne (1913) [Bretagne class] = 23,560 long tons
- Lorraine (1913) [Bretagne class] = 23,560 long tons
- Normandie (1922) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
- Flandre (1922) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
- Gascogne (1922) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
- Languedoc (1922) [Normandie class] = 25,320 long tons
Total: 264,360 long tons

Austria: 260,000 long tons
- SMS Virbius Unitis (1911) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Tegetthoff (1912) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Prinz Eugen (1912) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- SMS Szent István (1914) [Tegetthoff class] = 20,000 long tons
- RN Andrea Doria (1916) [Andrea Doria class] = 22,960 long tons
- RN Caio Duilio (1916) [Andrea Doria class] = 22,960 long tons
Total = 125,920 long tons

Confederacy: 260,000 long tons
- N/A

British Dominions: 180,000 long tons
N/A

--------------------------------------------------

Large Heavy Cruisers
Large heavy cruisers are ships with a standard tonnage between 10,000 and 27,500 long tons, an armament of 8 inches or greater, and a speed of 25 knots or greater. All large heavy cruisers built for foreign customers or on speculation must be announced to treaty signatories within at least 30 days of the ships being laid down. Ships may exceed their tonnage limit by 10% in future overhauls, with such additions taking place no less than 15 years after entering service and not counting against tonnage limits.

Large Heavy Cruiser Tonnage Limits:

British Empire (Australasia, Canada, Great Britain): 180,000 long tons
- HMS Lion (1912) [Lion class] = 26,270 long tons
- HMS Princess Royal (1912) [Lion class] = 26,270 long tons
- HMS Tiger (1914) [Tiger class] = 28,500 long tons
- HMS Renown (1916) [Renown class] = 27,200 long tons
- HMS Repulse (1916) [Renown class] = 27,200 long tons
- HMS Courageous (1916) [Courageous class] = 19,180 long tons
- HMS Glorious (1916) [Courageous class] = 19,180 long tons
Total: 173,800 long tons

Germany: 180,000 long tons
- SMS Von der Tann (1910) [Von der Tann class] = 21,000 long tons
- SMS Moltke (1911) [Moltke class] = 25,000 long tons
- SMS Seydlitz (1913) [Seydlitz class] = 28,100 long tons
- SMS Derfflinger (1914) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
- SMS Lützow (1915) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
- SMS Hindenburg (1917) [Derfflinger class] = 30,700 long tons
Total: 166,200 long tons

United States: 120,000 long tons
N/A

Japan: 120,000 long tons
- IJN KongM (1913) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Hiei (1914) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Kirishima (1915) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
- IJN Haruna (1915) [KongM class] = 27,500 long tons
Total: 110,000 long tons

Russia: 90,000 long tons
N/A

France: 60,000 long tons
N/A

Austria: 60,000 long tons
N/A

Confederacy: 60,000 long tons
N/A

British Dominions: 60,000 long tons
N/A

Delta Force

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11

Saturday, March 17th 2012, 6:51am

What do you think of this battlecruiser for the Austro-Hungarian Navy? I know battlecruisers are an unusual choice for Austria-Hungary, but their naval designers produced designs for several of them during World War I, so they had some interest in them.

Kaiser Franz Josef I, Austria-Hungary Battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
32,071 t light; 33,751 t standard; 39,068 t normal; 43,322 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft x 32.81 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 32.00 m x 10.00 m

Armament:
8 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,204.62lbs / 1,000.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 19,844 lbs / 9,001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.86" / 225 mm 518.37 ft / 158.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 475.72 ft / 145.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 475.72 ft / 145.00 m 36.09 ft / 11.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 10.6" / 270 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 10.63" / 270 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 134,884 shp / 100,623 Kw = 29.21 kts
Range 3,000nm at 29.21 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,571 tons

Complement:
1,389 - 1,806

Cost:
£10.636 million / $42.543 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,544 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 9,607 tons, 24.6 %
- Belts: 3,854 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 750 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 3,199 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,541 tons, 3.9 %
- Conning Tower: 264 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 4,575 tons, 11.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,345 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,997 tons, 17.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,585 lbs / 18,409 Kg = 18.0 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.95

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.54 ft / 6.26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.8 %
Waterplane Area: 52,885 Square feet or 4,913 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,020 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Delta Force

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Saturday, March 17th 2012, 8:25am

A treaty battleship for the Austro-Hungarians.

Österreich, Austria-Hungary Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
38,704 t light; 40,860 t standard; 43,286 t normal; 45,226 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft x 31.99 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 32.00 m x 9.75 m

Armament:
12 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,204.62lbs / 1,000.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 28,662 lbs / 13,001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 33.63 ft / 10.25 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 8.86" / 225 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.92" / 125 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 41,830 shp / 31,205 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 21.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,366 tons

Complement:
1,499 - 1,950

Cost:
£12.653 million / $50.612 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,674 tons, 8.5 %
Armour: 16,002 tons, 37.0 %
- Belts: 5,815 tons, 13.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 964 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 3,693 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 5,165 tons, 11.9 %
- Conning Tower: 366 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,419 tons, 3.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,608 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,582 tons, 10.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,245 lbs / 23,698 Kg = 23.1 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 7.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.85
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.35 ft / 9.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.54 ft / 6.26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.9 %
Waterplane Area: 56,728 Square feet or 5,270 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 228 lbs/sq ft or 1,113 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

ALVAMA

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13

Saturday, March 17th 2012, 9:57am

Awesome!

Where is the Dutch :( ?!?!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ALVAMA" (Mar 17th 2012, 9:57am)

Delta Force

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14

Saturday, March 17th 2012, 9:59am

A possible Austro-Hungarian response to the Kongos and similar battlecruisers turned heavy cruisers.

Böhmen, Austria-Hungary Large Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
26,322 t light; 27,574 t standard; 28,906 t normal; 29,971 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 91.86 ft x 29.04 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 28.00 m x 8.85 m

Armament:
9 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,399.94lbs / 635.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 14,806 lbs / 6,716 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.86" / 225 mm 538.06 ft / 164.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 538.06 ft / 164.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 538.06 ft / 164.00 m 30.68 ft / 9.35 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 10.83" / 275 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 106,292 shp / 79,294 Kw = 30.10 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,396 tons

Complement:
1,107 - 1,440

Cost:
£7.910 million / $31.638 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,755 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 8,667 tons, 30.0 %
- Belts: 3,969 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 721 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 2,386 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1,371 tons, 4.7 %
- Conning Tower: 220 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,606 tons, 12.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,294 tons, 42.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,584 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,942 lbs / 14,489 Kg = 24.4 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m (18.86 ft / 5.75 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Stern: 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Average freeboard: 20.41 ft / 6.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.8 %
Waterplane Area: 47,060 Square feet or 4,372 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 915 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Delta Force

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15

Saturday, March 17th 2012, 10:02am

RE: Awesome!

Quoted

Originally posted by ALVAMA
Where is the Dutch :( ?!?!


I haven't ignored them, they just aren't a great power. The Dutch are in the minor power thread. Feel free to contribute some designs for fast battleships and similar warships for them, they will need them to defend Indonesia in the much more dangerous timeline of my game.

Delta Force

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16

Saturday, March 17th 2012, 10:19am

I revised the battlecruiser design a bit more:

Kaiser Franz Josef I, Austria-Hungary Battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
34,179 t light; 35,803 t standard; 36,236 t normal; 36,582 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft x 30.43 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 32.00 m x 9.28 m

Armament:
8 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,204.62lbs / 1,000.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 19,844 lbs / 9,001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 485.56 ft / 148.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 485.56 ft / 148.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 485.56 ft / 148.00 m 32.07 ft / 9.78 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.8" / 375 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 107,518 shp / 80,208 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 1,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 779 tons

Complement:
1,313 - 1,707

Cost:
£10.483 million / $41.931 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,544 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 12,126 tons, 33.5 %
- Belts: 5,051 tons, 13.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 681 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 3,710 tons, 10.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,406 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 279 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,647 tons, 10.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,862 tons, 43.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,056 tons, 5.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,893 lbs / 18,549 Kg = 18.1 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m (21.33 ft / 6.50 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Stern: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.70 ft / 6.92 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.3 %
Waterplane Area: 55,058 Square feet or 5,115 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 213 lbs/sq ft or 1,040 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Delta Force

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17

Sunday, March 18th 2012, 11:43pm

Any thoughts on these ships thus far? Also, I just realized I messed up the range on the last battlecruiser by accidentally making it 1,500 nm at 12 knots, which would be enough make it the most powerful warship to be anchored at Pola.

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18

Tuesday, March 20th 2012, 6:37am

An AH maximum treaty battleship (at the 50k ton, 18 inch gun limit):

Quoted

AH Maximum Battleship, Austria-Hungary Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
47,365 t light; 50,292 t standard; 52,442 t normal; 54,162 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 118.11 ft x 31.58 ft (normal load)
240.00 m / 240.00 m x 36.00 m x 9.63 m

Armament:
12 - 18.11" / 460 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,306.93lbs / 1,500.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 41,890 lbs / 19,001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 518.37 ft / 158.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 518.37 ft / 158.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 518.37 ft / 158.00 m 33.22 ft / 10.13 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 65,250 shp / 48,677 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 1,800nm at 23.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,870 tons

Complement:
1,732 - 2,252

Cost:
£16.221 million / $64.883 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,738 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 17,000 tons, 32.4 %
- Belts: 6,191 tons, 11.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,003 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 4,319 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 5,071 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 416 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,213 tons, 4.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 23,413 tons, 44.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,077 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,389 lbs / 25,124 Kg = 18.6 x 18.1 " / 460 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Stern: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.2 %
Waterplane Area: 69,620 Square feet or 6,468 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 264 lbs/sq ft or 1,290 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


A 40k ton, 16.5 inch gun limit AH battleship:

Quoted

Österreichv2, Austria-Hungary Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
37,992 t light; 40,127 t standard; 42,220 t normal; 43,895 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft x 31.20 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 32.00 m x 9.51 m

Armament:
12 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,204.62lbs / 1,000.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 28,662 lbs / 13,001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 33.14 ft / 10.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 67,891 shp / 50,647 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 1,800nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,769 tons

Complement:
1,472 - 1,914

Cost:
£12.923 million / $51.691 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,674 tons, 8.7 %
Armour: 15,020 tons, 35.6 %
- Belts: 5,815 tons, 13.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 950 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 3,763 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 4,132 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Tower: 360 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,303 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,995 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,229 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,413 lbs / 19,238 Kg = 18.8 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.625
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Stern: 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Average freeboard: 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.8 %
Waterplane Area: 56,728 Square feet or 5,270 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 229 lbs/sq ft or 1,116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


An AH battlecruiser:

Quoted

Kaiser Franz Josef Iv2, Austria-Hungary Battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
37,518 t light; 39,265 t standard; 42,384 t normal; 44,880 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
820.21 ft / 820.21 ft x 104.99 ft x 30.36 ft (normal load)
250.00 m / 250.00 m x 32.00 m x 9.25 m

Armament:
8 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,204.62lbs / 1,000.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 19,844 lbs / 9,001 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.8" / 325 mm 531.50 ft / 162.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 531.50 ft / 162.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 531.50 ft / 162.00 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.8" / 375 mm 8.86" / 225 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 131,069 shp / 97,777 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 1,800nm at 30.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,615 tons

Complement:
1,476 - 1,920

Cost:
£11.106 million / $44.426 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,544 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 13,438 tons, 31.7 %
- Belts: 5,873 tons, 13.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 991 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 3,484 tons, 8.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,781 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 309 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 4,446 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,091 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,866 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
50,701 lbs / 22,998 Kg = 22.4 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 16.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.99

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.568
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.93 ft / 7.60 m (19.03 ft / 5.80 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Stern: 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Average freeboard: 20.58 ft / 6.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.2 %
Waterplane Area: 63,626 Square feet or 5,911 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 991 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather


An AH large heavy cruiser:

Quoted

Böhmenv2, Austria-Hungary Large Heavy Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
26,463 t light; 27,681 t standard; 30,253 t normal; 32,311 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 91.86 ft x 29.04 ft (normal load)
220.00 m / 220.00 m x 28.00 m x 8.85 m

Armament:
8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,399.94lbs / 635.00kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
18 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1922 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 13,406 lbs / 6,081 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 493.77 ft / 150.50 m 30.68 ft / 9.35 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 10.8" / 275 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm - -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 10.83" / 275 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 109,147 shp / 81,423 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 1,800nm at 30.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,630 tons

Complement:
1,146 - 1,491

Cost:
£7.585 million / $30.342 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,591 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 9,319 tons, 30.8 %
- Belts: 4,044 tons, 13.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 883 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 2,412 tons, 8.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,754 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Tower: 226 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,702 tons, 12.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,850 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,790 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
36,529 lbs / 16,569 Kg = 27.9 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.44 ft / 7.45 m (18.54 ft / 5.65 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18.54 ft / 5.65 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.54 ft / 5.65 m
- Stern: 18.54 ft / 5.65 m
- Average freeboard: 20.12 ft / 6.13 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.4 %
Waterplane Area: 48,176 Square feet or 4,476 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 868 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

BruceDuncan

Ex chaos ordo

Posts: 12,916

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19

Tuesday, March 20th 2012, 3:00pm

Seriously...

If such designs are to have any real worth their radius of action has to be more than 1800 nm, or they are nothing more than glorified coast defense vessels, if that.

Protection is admirable, but devoting a third or more of a ship's mass to armor makes it nothing more than a floating fortress.

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

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20

Tuesday, March 20th 2012, 3:18pm

I note that's range at flank speed, but it's still low. Which actually is a trade that could work for Austria-Hungary, as they didn't really need to leave the Adriatic.

I just don't really see the purpose, need, or mission for this ship, though. It just feels like yet another "Oh, me too, I want big battleships too, all the other cool kids have them, I'll die if I don't get them moooommmmiie."

It'd be better for them to spend the money on more important and useful things.

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