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A different Denmark

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Thiel

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Tuesday, October 4th 2011, 1:00am

A different Denmark

These designs are part of an Alternate Universe I'm working on.
I'll post the story once I have some more time, so for know I'll just post the designs.

A colonial sloop built to patrol Denmarks few overseas possessions.

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PG1936, Denmark Sloop laid down 1936

Displacement:
   1.477 t light; 1.566 t standard; 1.872 t normal; 2.117 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (295,28 ft / 289,87 ft) x 39,37 ft x (11,48 / 12,57 ft)
   (90,00 m / 88,35 m) x 12,00 m  x (3,50 / 3,83 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4,72" / 120 mm 50,0 cal guns - 55,82lbs / 25,32kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1934 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm 60,0 cal guns - 2,05lbs / 0,93kg shells, 2.500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      4 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 60,0 cal guns - 0,28lbs / 0,13kg shells, 3.000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 0,31" / 7,9 mm 75,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4.000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 double raised mount
      Weight of broadside 233 lbs / 106 kg
      Mines
      2 - 983,26 lbs / 446,00 kg mines + 100 reloads - 44,774 t total
   in Above water - Stern racks/rails
      Main DC/AS Mortars
      1 - 220,46 lbs / 100,00 kg Depth Charge + 20 reloads - 2,067 t total
   in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0,31" / 8 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 0,24" / 6 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 4.514 shp / 3.368 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 10.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 552 tons

Complement:
   141 - 184 + up to 40 troops

Cost:
   £0,497 million / $1,986 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 116 tons, 6,2 %
      - Guns: 58 tons, 3,1 %
      - Weapons: 59 tons, 3,1 %
   Armour: 40 tons, 2,1 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0,1 %
      - Armour Deck: 38 tons, 2,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 127 tons, 6,8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.170 tons, 62,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 395 tons, 21,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1,3 %
      - Hull below water: 5 tons
      - Hull above water: 5 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 5 tons
      - Above deck: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7.942 lbs / 3.603 Kg = 150,6 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 13,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 90 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and large transom stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,500 / 0,517
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,93 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  21,33 ft / 6,50 m,  20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Forward deck:   40,00 %,  20,34 ft / 6,20 m,  19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Aft deck:   25,00 %,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00 %,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Average freeboard:      16,79 ft / 5,12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 37,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 7.907 Square feet or 735 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 338 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 413 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,28
      - Longitudinal: 6,96
      - Overall: 1,52
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather



A small tender built to support a squadron of torpedo and gunboats on the colonial stations.
Originally she carried a small float-plane but it was found that the designers had underestimated how much space was needed to operate it so the aircraft was landed and the areas put to better use.

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Henrik Gerner, Denmark Tender laid down 1927

Displacement:
	899 t light; 945 t standard; 1.235 t normal; 1.466 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
	(213,27 ft / 210,06 ft) x 32,81 ft x (9,84 / 11,39 ft)
	(65,00 m / 64,03 m) x 10,00 m  x (3,00 / 3,47 m)

Armament:
      2 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 200 per gun
	  Breech loading guns in deck mount, 1924 Model
	  1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      4 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 75,0 cal guns - 14,56lbs / 6,61kg shells, 300 per gun
	  Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
	  2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
		2 raised mounts
      8 - 0,31" / 7,9 mm 75,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4.000 per gun
	  Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
	  4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
		4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 165 lbs / 75 kg
      Mines
      2 - 983,26 lbs / 446,00 kg mines + 100 reloads - 44,774 t total
	in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Armour:
   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	0,39" / 10 mm	      -			      -

Machinery:
	Diesel Internal combustion motors, 
	Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3.133 shp / 2.337 Kw = 17,00 kts
	Range 12.000nm at 12,00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 520 tons

Complement:
	103 - 135

Cost:
	£0,202 million / $0,806 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 86 tons, 6,9 %
	   - Guns: 30 tons, 2,4 %
	   - Weapons: 56 tons, 4,5 %
	Armour: 1 tons, 0,1 %
	   - Armament: 1 tons, 0,1 %
	Machinery: 99 tons, 8,0 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 413 tons, 33,5 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 336 tons, 27,2 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 24,3 %
	   - Hull below water: 100 tons
	   - Hull above water: 100 tons
	   - On freeboard deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  2.955 lbs / 1.340 Kg = 56,1 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 1,4 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,30
	Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
	Roll period: 11,3 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,19
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,39

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has raised forecastle,
	  a normal bow and a round stern
	Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,637 / 0,653
	Length to Beam Ratio: 6,40 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 14,49 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
	Stern overhang: 1,31 ft / 0,40 m
	Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
				Fore end,	 Aft end
	   - Forecastle:	13,66 %,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m
	   - Forward deck:	31,60 %,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m,  10,50 ft / 3,20 m
	   - Aft deck:	42,85 %,  10,50 ft / 3,20 m,  9,19 ft / 2,80 m
	   - Quarter deck:	11,89 %,  9,19 ft / 2,80 m,  9,84 ft / 3,00 m
	   - Average freeboard:		11,15 ft / 3,40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53,5 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99,7 %
	Waterplane Area: 5.217 Square feet or 485 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 207 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 263 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 1,13
		- Longitudinal: 3,01
		- Overall: 1,25
	Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
	Adequate accommodation and workspace room
	Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
	Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


If you're interested in one of my designs feel to contact me either here or via PM.
If you want to use it for your WW navy I can modify them as needed.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Thiel" (Oct 4th 2011, 1:02am)

BruceDuncan

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Tuesday, October 4th 2011, 2:14am

Two interesting looking vessels, particularly the Sehested class sloop.

She's the right size for overseas service, and her armament is certainly suitable for it.

The lack of a full gun house for the main armament is a point of concern, as the gun crews have very little protection against shell fragments.

And there are some that would question the combination of a transom stern with mine-laying - the mis-adventures of HMS Adventure usually being cited (mines being sucked back against the hull - bad combination). I think laying the mines from the deck rather than a stern chute will obviate that problem, as will the relatively slow speed at which she would be laying mines.

Thiel

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Tuesday, October 4th 2011, 6:48am

Thank you.
I realize that open shields are less than optimal,but the gun in question (The 12 cm/50 Model 1934/1936) didn't have them in real life either.

The transom stern is indeed less than optimal for minelaying, but then minelaying is very much her secondary mission. In fact, the main reason why I put them on her is because the real world RDN put minerails on everything that could float from torpedo boats to, supposedly, the Royal Yacht.

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, October 4th 2011, 8:06am

Why put a transome on her at all? With a top speed of 18kn she can hardly benefit a lot from this design feature.

Brockpaine

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Tuesday, October 4th 2011, 4:15pm

Looks nicely done. I think Hoo might perhaps be right about the transom; I recall that transom sterns are less efficient at intermediate speeds.

parador

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Tuesday, October 4th 2011, 11:20pm

Nice drawings and sure usefull ships. I love the Henrik Gerner Class ;) :D

Thiel

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Wednesday, October 5th 2011, 2:37pm

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Why put a transome on her at all? With a top speed of 18kn she can hardly benefit a lot from this design feature.

Good question. And since I can't answer it I'll go ahead and redo the stern.

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
Nice drawings and sure usefull ships. I love the Henrik Gerner Class ;) :D

Thank you.

Btw, I've been told the Henrik Gerner has a needlessly high composite strength, but I don't understand SpringSharp enough to correct this.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Thiel" (Oct 5th 2011, 2:43pm)

Brockpaine

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Wednesday, October 5th 2011, 4:21pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Thiel

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
Nice drawings and sure usefull ships. I love the Henrik Gerner Class ;) :D

Thank you.

Btw, I've been told the Henrik Gerner has a needlessly high composite strength, but I don't understand SpringSharp enough to correct this.

To some extent, you can think of composite strength in Springsharp as a "budget" to do things. When you have positive composite strength, you can increase the capabilities of the ship. When it's below 1.00 (except in special cases), then you need to increase the size of the ship or reduce capabilities.

Glancing over the Henrik Gerner, the composite strength of 1.25 gives you the capability to expand a few more capabilities, potentially by a significant margin, but I'm not entirely confident that would be beneficial or realistic to the vessel. Just as a rough guess, I'd wager you could wring another four knots or so out of that composite strength, or another one to two hundred tons of miscellaneous weight. Alternately, you could reduce the block coefficient to reduce the tonnage of the hull... though I think the current block coefficient is probably a realistic choice given the vessel's size and type. Making any of those changes may affect other things (such as stability, seakeeping, steadiness, etc).

There's nothing to say that you'd *have* to use the extra hull strength if you don't want to, and in many cases having a reserve of hull strength would be quite desirable. So I'd probably suggest leaving things as-is.

Thiel

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Wednesday, October 5th 2011, 5:39pm

So it represents board margins then?

BruceDuncan

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Wednesday, October 5th 2011, 5:44pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Thiel

Btw, I've been told the Henrik Gerner has a needlessly high composite strength, but I don't understand SpringSharp enough to correct this.



Given your AU Denmark's colonial possessions in Greenland and Iceland it may not be necessary to modify the high composite strength. It may merely represent additional hull strengthening to resist ice that may be encountered on those stations.

But Brock has laid out several possible alternatives.

One thing I have found that in "back-simming" historical vessels I often find that keeping to historical dimensions, tonnages and armament outfits will often result in Springsharp generating a very high composite strength - particularly in smaller ships. I think this may be a result of the model being optimized for cruiser and battleship sized warships, not small sloops.

Because of the mechanics of our naval construction simulation, there is a great tendency to reduce light tonnage to the minimum - hence comments regarding excessive hull strength. Unless you were engaged in our sim, I would not worry too much about that one factor if you were satisfied on all others.

Brockpaine

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Wednesday, October 5th 2011, 10:34pm

Bruce said it well. :)

snip

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Wednesday, October 5th 2011, 11:57pm

With regards to the stern, I dont think there is no need to change the drawing. Changing the springsharp file to use a square stern should remove the transom and its effects while preserving the shape as drawn. I higly doubt that the design would work with a traditional cruiser stern with the aft gun so far back, but I would be more then happy to be shown otherwise.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

Thiel

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13

Thursday, October 6th 2011, 9:11am

While we're waiting for me to remodel the Sehested here's one of the Torpedo boats the Henrik Gerner was buildt to support.

The drawing is obviously not finished.
It shows them as they looked after they'd been refitted for colonial duty in 1924.
Originally they'd carried two 45cm torpedo tubes aft, a 47mm gun on the bow and two 8mm mgs.

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Hejren Class, Denmark Torpedoboat laid down 1907

Displacement:
	154 t light; 158 t standard; 166 t normal; 172 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
	(147,64 ft / 146,89 ft) x 15,42 ft x (8,53 / 8,69 ft)
	(45,00 m / 44,77 m) x 4,70 m  x (2,60 / 2,65 m)

Armament:
      2 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 5,98lbs / 2,71kg shells, 150 per gun
	  Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1907 Model
	  2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm 80,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2.000 per gun
	  Machine guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
	  2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      1 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedo - 0,897 t total
	In a deck mounted carriage/fixed tube

Armour:
   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	0,24" / 6 mm	      -			      -

Machinery:
	Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, 
	Geared drive, 2 shafts, 4.214 ihp / 3.144 Kw = 25,00 kts
	Range 400nm at 12,00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 14 tons (100% coal)
	  Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
	23 - 30

Cost:
	£0,020 million / $0,081 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 4 tons, 2,5 %
	   - Guns: 3 tons, 1,8 %
	   - Weapons: 1 tons, 0,7 %
	Armour: 1 tons, 0,6 %
	   - Armament: 1 tons, 0,6 %
	Machinery: 101 tons, 61,1 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 47 tons, 28,6 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12 tons, 7,2 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  33 lbs / 15 Kg = 5,9 x 2,2 " / 57 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
	Metacentric height 0,4 ft / 0,1 m
	Roll period: 10,2 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,10
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,76

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has a flush deck,
	  a normal bow and a cruiser stern
	Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,300 / 0,305
	Length to Beam Ratio: 9,53 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 12,12 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 79
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
	Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
	Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
				Fore end,	 Aft end
	   - Forecastle:	20,00 %,  8,53 ft / 2,60 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
	   - Forward deck:	30,00 %,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  5,58 ft / 1,70 m
	   - Aft deck:	35,00 %,  5,58 ft / 1,70 m,  5,58 ft / 1,70 m
	   - Quarter deck:	15,00 %,  5,58 ft / 1,70 m,  5,58 ft / 1,70 m
	   - Average freeboard:		6,08 ft / 1,85 m
	Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201,6 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62,6 %
	Waterplane Area: 1.331 Square feet or 124 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 18 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 86 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 0,55
		- Longitudinal: 2,90
		- Overall: 0,65
	Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
	Cramped accommodation and workspace room
	Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather


Btw, how are torpedo reloads accounted for in SS?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Thiel" (Oct 6th 2011, 11:00am)

eltf177

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14

Thursday, October 6th 2011, 11:38am

Quoted

Btw, how are torpedo reloads accounted for in SS?


I myself put them under miscellaneous weight.

Brockpaine

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15

Friday, October 7th 2011, 12:10am

Quoted

Originally posted by eltf177

Quoted

Btw, how are torpedo reloads accounted for in SS?


I myself put them under miscellaneous weight.

Generally correct, yes.

Thiel

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Monday, October 10th 2011, 10:12pm


And here she is in all her glory, the last VTE powered torpedo boat in this RDN.
I'll post some more information about the class once I get around to putting it in writing.
I'll also need to change a couple of details in the SS report to reflect some of the changes I've made.

Brockpaine

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17

Monday, October 10th 2011, 10:16pm

Nice. Though - did she ram something? Looks like there's a chunk out of her bow. ?(

Commodore Green

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Monday, October 10th 2011, 10:28pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Nice. Though - did she ram something? Looks like there's a chunk out of her bow. ?(


Torpedo tube.......

Brockpaine

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Monday, October 10th 2011, 10:32pm

Aha.

Thiel

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Monday, October 10th 2011, 11:42pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Nice. Though - did she ram something? Looks like there's a chunk out of her bow. ?(


Torpedo tube.......

Yes. It has a single torpedo tube mounted on the centerline

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