WesWorld

Heck not even post-WWII tanks could survive a 105mm hit.

You are joking, right? Has anyone in WW invented HEAT or HESH rounds yet?

Well according to the Yugoslav encyclopedia, the Yugo's have around 20 infantry division, plus supporting units. Even if they divert 5 divisions to watch the Bulgarians and the Greeks, they still have 15 divisions opposing 10 Italian. And thats if the Italians manage to concentrate all their divisions in Dalmatia/Slovenia.

You don't need HEAT or HESH shells, not even the Tiger could stand up to 105mm AP rounds. Thought I don't see why the Italians would use their 105mm artillery as AT guns.

Thats BS, Both German and Romanian field artillery had only marginal effect against Medium and Heavy tanks, the Russian 76mm was more effective since it was designed to double as an AT gun, some AA Guns performed well against tanks but field artillery has to low exit velocity to be effective.

The German 10,5 cm le.F.H.18 depending on ammunition has a penetration at 100m between 63 and 100mm

There's HUGE differences between various versions of 105mm guns. WWII 105mm howitzers are not nearly as good at killing tanks as 1970s 105mmm tank guns, for instance.

A 105mm against a BT-5, though, will kill it dead: the BT-5's best armor is only about 13mm.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
If the Bulgarians decide to intervene, I can see them having a rough time of it, although it may depend on when they intervene. If the Bulgarians decide to intervene right away, then the Yugo's could possibly contain their offensive against the Italians and knock out the Bulgarians. Even with the Romanian "volunteers" the Bulgarians only have 8 infantry division.

Eight standing infantry divisions currently. In World War II, despite not declaring war against the Russians, Bulgaria raised twenty-four infantry divisions once they got going.

Bulgarian divisions are larger than the divisions of most other armies, at least as I understand. Since I'm freed from the limits of the Treaty of Neuilly, I can go back to the practices that made Bulgaria known, in the late 1800s, as "the Prussia of the Balkans": excellent mountain troops backed by very strong artillery. Bulgarian arms buyers will have a very cozy rapport with Skoda, Fabrique Nationale, and all the other folks.

Even if Bulgaria lacks a causus belli to join this Yugo-Italian War, Bulgaria has some territories lost following the Great War that the irredentist government would be oh-so-happy to occupy. (It seems the Greeks hold Macedonian Thrace, and Bulgaria is disinclined to challenge Greece for territory - we'd rather have them as allies or disinterested neighbors.)

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Reading Perdedor's script for this war, I would suggest this script for Bulgarian involvement:

1. Bulgaria officially declares neutrality early in the war, but Bulgarian arms "somehow" trickle into the hands of ethinic Bulgarians (and other minorities) acting as partisans in Yugoslavia: this is similar to what happened historically. Bulgaria also provides airfields for Italian aircraft. ("Oh, those were Italian bombers? Whoops, thought they were ours.")
2. The Yugoslav army launches operations designed to crack down on partisans and gun runners; Bulgaria mobilizes and deploys towards the border.
3. Bulgaria talks extensively with Italy: Bulgaria is concerned that if Yugoslavia is victorious versus Italy, they might get ideas about other "weaker" neighbors.
4. Bulgaria uses reports of atrocities during Yugoslavia's anti-partisan operations, and some small border clashes, to provide a causus belli right before Yugoslavia tries to dictate terms to Italy. Bulgaria of course wishes to give Italy a reason not to take the terms. (Of course if Italy DOES take the terms, Bulgaria would just have seriously stepped in it!)
5. Bulgaria fights on the border with the Yugoslavs, and makes a concentrated advance on Nis, Kragujevac and Belgrade with ten divisions. (Bulgaria will have the advantage of good railway supply routes, if they can keep the partisans off them.) Bulgaria's campaign will basically follow the same territory as the OTL southern prong of the German invasion in 1941, but slower and more grueling. First Nis, then Kragujevac will be taken.
6. Bulgaria fights Yugoslav gunboats on the Danube, and Yugoslav air forces over Sofia and Belgrade.
7. The Bulgarian Army meets the Italians and allies (and Romanians?) to beseige Belgrade.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
There's HUGE differences between various versions of 105mm guns. WWII 105mm howitzers are not nearly as good at killing tanks as 1970s 105mmm tank guns, for instance.

A 105mm against a BT-5, though, will kill it dead: the BT-5's best armor is only about 13mm.

Since he was talking about Tigers I assume that he meant WW2 guns, and not many 105mm field artillery pieces would seriously damage a post WW2 tank without HEAT/EFP/HESH. And the initial question was about HE

24 divisions? Thats impressive. Looks like Romania's going to have to do some expanding, though as of Dec 1934, Romania had 20 standing infantry. An armoured and mechanized division are being formed but won't appear until late 1936.

Thats actually somewhat similar to what I was thinking. Here's my ideas for the Romanian part.

1. Yugo's DOW on Italy. Romania and Poland both declare their neutrality. Poland does offer 3 squadrons of antiquated PZL P.7s to Yugoslavia, but somehow things just keep holding those squadrons up from getting to Yugoslavia.

2. When Bulgaria intervenes in the war, Romania and Poland still declare their neutrality (Romania doesn't feel the need to break Dodrich, and without the Romanias intervening, the Poles can't do much). Romania does make a show at interallied unity, by sending her Armoured Division to the Bulgarian border.

3. Romania sends secret orders to the C.O. of the Armoured Division, as well as 3 fighter squadrons, and the Naval Dive Bomber Squadron to begin negotiations with the Bulgarian General Staff on joining them in their fight against the Bulgarians. They also have instructions to remove any sign of them being Romanian units on their vehicles, and are issued uniforms purchased from the Italian or Bulgarian army.

3. The Armoured Division, as well as the Air Force units "mutiny" and offer their services to the Bulgarian Armed Forces. The Bulgarians (hopefully) accept.

4. With word of the atrocities against the Bulgarian nationals in S. Yugoslavia convinces the Romanian government that the Yugoslavs are no longer in control of things. Romania begins mobilizing.

5. 25 divisions, with supporting troops march across the border to "prevent atrocities to Romanian nationals living in Yugoslavia." The Romanians begin an offensive with the objective of capturing Belgrade. With attacks on three sides, Yugoslavia should collapse quickly.

Remember that Yugoslavia will be also mobilizing. So that 21 Yugoslavian divisions could turn into at least 40 or more, enough to hold on the Bulgarian advance or make it a bloody and slow affair for a while. Also the 24 divisions in Bulgaria were pretty much achieved by drafting everyone from 17 to middle forties IIRC so quality will vary.

And the once they get going will take time. While they are doing it Yugoslavia is already mobilizing so as I said it will not be a picnic.

Just read the info in regard to Bulgaria. The 24 divisions come from recruits after some of Bulgarian minorities living in Yugoslavia were pressed into service in the Bulgarian army. By the start of Barbarossa the Bulgarian Army was 16 division strong with a couple of cavalry divisions. And you have to cover your borders with Greece.

Romania only raised five more infantry divisions after the original 20 during WW2. And remember you have to cover your borders with Russia.

Maybe you guys know they will not attack out of character but in character it will be criminal to strip your borders to concentrate the way you guys are stating. Ten divisions will leave no reserve for the Bulgarian Army and 25 will be the whole Romanian army except for the Mountain troops.

Actually, 20 is the entire Romanian Army's infantry divisions. An additional 6 can be raised after mobilization. So if I send 2 divisions to watch the Russian border, and 1 to watch the Hungarians, that leaves 17 divisions to attack Yugoslavia. Not much, but still the most out of all the forces involved until the Italians get their mobilized units plus their AANM reinforcements their. All 6 reinforcement divisions will of course be sent to the Yugoslav front bringing the total up to 23. Oh and Poland's also going to be massing troops on the Romanian border, and if the Yugo's declare war, then the Poles will be sending 10 divisions to Romanian, 3 to reinforce the Russian frontier defences, and 7 to help the Romanians. That bring the total up to 30. Plus, if the Yugo's manage to hold out till then, an additional 9 Polish infantry divisions will be mobilized and sent to help the Romanians, and the 2 mountain divisions. Rounding out the grand total to 41 Polish-Romanian divisions on the Yugoslav front. Do you suppose that's enough force?

...heh... true.

Perhaps Yugoslavia is in the market for surplus Greek MTB, MGB and submarines, cash up front of course.

Aside from supplying 30-40 light craft and 15 year old subs I can see Greece sitting this out.

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval
Perhaps Yugoslavia is in the market for surplus Greek MTB, MGB and submarines, cash up front of course.

Aside from supplying 30-40 light craft and 15 year old subs I can see Greece sitting this out.

Cheers,

Yeah, I can just imagine that Greece is *dying* to fight the Italian fleet...

Quoted

Since he was talking about Tigers I assume that he meant WW2 guns, and not many 105mm field artillery pieces would seriously damage a post WW2 tank without HEAT/EFP/HESH. And the initial question was about HE

You are not going to hit a tank with a howitzer, especially a light maneuverable tank like the BT-5. Now 105mm field guns are another story, those are capable of hitting a tank, and no tank can survive those hits. Of course if you are using heavy field guns in the AT role, you are in trouble.


Mexico's help will be mainly advisors and material. Mexico does have recent combat experience to draw on, in the areas of tank use (a bit flawed), anti-insurgency in mountain areas, and use of aircraft in support of ground troops. Mexico can also supply semi-automatic rifles for the Yugoslav forces, tilting the balance to them a little bit.

If the Yugoslavs want to purchase Greek ships, Mexico could help...

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Mexico can also supply semi-automatic rifles for the Yugoslav forces, tilting the balance to them a little bit.

You mean "even the balance". Remember Italy has a semiautomatic rifle, the Breda .31, with a lighter version under development. Bulgaria is also developing internally a semiauto rifle (though the version which will actually WORK will have to wait until the 1940s, most likely).

Not really, the Italian weapons are available only in very limited numbers and the Mexican rifles are superior.

Quoted

You are joking, right? Has anyone in WW invented HEAT or HESH rounds yet?

I meant a pure HE round, rather than HESH/HEAT which start being used in Italy around 1940 as Effetto Pronto and Effeto Pronto Speciale. The 105/35 Semovente is the most common tank likely to be met and the 105mm shell is going at a fair velocity of 780m/s. A pure HE shell should be able to penetrate thin plates before detonating. Considering the short distance from the coast, fire support from large calibre weapons might be common.

Quoted

Not really, the Italian weapons are available only in very limited numbers and the Mexican rifles are superior.

Theres currently a strange mix of 6.5mm Carcanos, 7.35mm Carcanos, 7.35mm Carcano Carbines, 7.35mm fully auto Breda 31s and old SMGs. In a few years this'll change to just the 7.35mm weapons, with the Beretta MAB starting to replace the older SMGs. The Carcano is probably the most useful bolt-action rifle for common engagements under 300m, its light, accurate and uses point and shoot sights.

oooh, another explosions in the balkans!

In direct-fire, a WWII 105mm howitzer shell can hit a tank without too much difficulty. What it does to that tank, well, that depends on the tank. Against a BT-5 type, the detonation of the shell on impact with the armor (the shell likely won't penetrate without the nose fuze being crushed and there's no base fuze on most of these rounds), the blast and chunks of the shell would tear the armor open without difficulty. More heavily armored targets (say Matilda IIs and heavier) were relatively well protected vs 105mm HE in direct fire (an indirect fire direct hit would kill them, but was purely luck), though the shock could injure the crew and might cause minor spalling of the armor. 105mm field guns could kill quite heavy tanks, but they're rare, heavy, and hard to use against tanks (they're big and need a large crew).