WesWorld

I'm still trying to figure out why Persia's disbanded the army at all. To be the consequences of firing 75,000 men outweigh the threats of keeping them.

If they were such a threat to the shah why not simply send them to the new Pakistani territory.

Im going to have to agree with Wes on this one. Though Poland/Romania have little interest in the Middle Eastern area, besides the Romanian concern on what a future conflict could do to the price of oil. As an outside observer, the disbandoning of the Persian army comes at quite a surprise. Though tensions are fairly quiet now, in a couple of years, things could heat up.

Alternatively, rather than disbanding the lot of them, if the shah feels threatened by the army, the alternative is to send them to the other SATSUMA nations for training in basic modern warfare. Japan might be best, because the fanaticism their soldiers show to their emperor could be potentially transfered onto the shah (not sure if this is true in this timeline). Im sure that training a bunch of Persians in the concept of modern war would be far better than having to send troops to defend the country. Heck, some kind of arms deal might even be signed where the Persians get to take their equipment home with them.

It just seems strange, with the TAEX expo which is supposed to be about purchasing modern equipment for the Persian Army and Air Force no longer has anyone to buy for. Thats just my take on it however.

Note that the speculations about why the army is being disbanded is Indian (as are the numbers) which unfortunately I had no advance warning of the Indian news pieces and couldnt give my input to. The reasons for the re allocation of funds was posted in the Persian Army thread for nearly a week and no one reacted until India decided to put it into the news. It also seems to be the mojority opinion that the fielding anything but a token force prepared for modern combat would take many years (10-12 IIRC) during which time Persia would have an expensive status symbol.

Depends. There's no reason at all Persia couldn't field a WWI-era infantry force of quite large size, it's only the mechanized forces that would be a bit of an issue. For defense of the realm, the infantry (with some AT rifles/AT guns) will be very adequate, and likely plenty adequate for some adventures against the neighbors.

Come to that, NO ONE at this period can just magically switch from a horse-drawn leg infantry force to a mechanized force instantly, even the most industrialized powers need to take time to do that. The US is launching down that road, it will take years to accomplish it. Germany is launching down that road, it will take more years to accomplish it.

In regard tot he post, I have to explain that this is not in no moment the opinion or the numbers of Vlad. India in the sim is making many assumptions in regard to the reasons of the Shah's decree and the possible effects. Of course thinking for the worse, in no way being the real situation inside Persia. That's up to Vlad. India is just playing with the info that is public and some info that has leaked thru diplomatic channels.

In regard to an Army structure India's army is basically a gigantic WW1 Army type, with only thirty divisions under a more modern structure. There is only eight motorized "cavalry" regiments, read truck mounted infantry, and nine tank battalions with one of those in the Naval Commandos.

I tend to agree that Persia could field a sizable force with some elite units being modernized. China IIRC is following the path of reducing the size of their military to ease the process of modernization. India is now in the process of building their first mechanized brigade plus changing the structure of thirty more divisions.

Quoted

Come to that, NO ONE at this period can just magically switch from a horse-drawn leg infantry force to a mechanized force instantly, even the most industrialized powers need to take time to do that. The US is launching down that road, it will take years to accomplish it. Germany is launching down that road, it will take more years to accomplish it.

The Russian Federation, with a standing army of about 30 active divisions and another 120 divisions to be filled out upon mobilization, started its mechanized forces with the publication of Kharactr Operatsii Sovremminikh Armii (Character of Operations of Modern Armies) by generals Triandfilov and Tukhachevskii in 1926. They're the General Staff officers who first laid out the Russian vision of Deep Battle. They got early support from Chief of Operations General-Colonel Boris M. Shaposhnikov, and the Russian Army formed its first mechanized brigade in 1928. Russian forces have developed from there, fostered particularly by Shaposhnikov, who is now a full Marshal of the Russian Federation and Chief of General Staff, and Colonel-General Tukhachevskii is his Chief of Operations.

Vehicle developments include the T-29 heavy breakthrough tank, the T-30 and T-35 fast tanks, and the BTR-35 personnel carrier. By 1932 the Russian Federation had a single Motorized Rifle Division, and a Tank Regiment with each Field Army, of which there were 14, supported by growing production of the T-29.

The Russian 1932 maneuvers tested the Tank Division organization.


The 1935 maneuvers are now testing the Mechanized Division, based on the Tank Division organization, and the Mechanized Corps. Russia's tank industry is switching production from the T-30 to the T-35, with a low rate of T-29 production continuing.

Russia is now in the process of fielding a mechanized force of 2 Tank, 5 Mechanized, and 6 Motor Rifle Divisions, and this first step will be completed by the end of 1937. 14 Cavalry Corps were removed from the force structure in 1935 to provide men and money to do this.

The full mechanized force of 6 Tank, 8 Mechanized, and 18 Motor Rifle divisions will be formed by 1939 or so.

So developing the Russian mechanized forces has been quite a long process, and Russia started with a large industrial base and a population about 30% to 40% literate.

November 23th 1935- Excerpts of Field Marshall Bahadur's report to the Foreign Office, the Defense Ministry and the General Staff:

"...it seems the personal message from his Highness the Raj to his Highness the Shah have a positive effect (1). We privately were informed a large part of the Persian Army, mainly infantry and elite members of the Persian military, were being moved to the Gendarmerie. This piece of news eliminate many of our concerns in regard to the economic impact of the news of the Army's dismissal. Still between 30000 to 40000 men could be unemployed, the majority in artillery and other technical fields..."

"...Philippines offer to sent a tank battalion to upgrade Persia's new defensive stand has being well received by his Highness the Shah, with the forward elements of the unit expected to arrive by the end of December...no news have being received by either Japan or China in regard to the Persian request for Satsuma troops on their soil..."

"...the Macchi c 200 fighters will be based in Bandar Abbas except for a unit that will be kept for evaluation..."

"...the first units will be small and the personnel assigned to them will be mainly trained artillerymen... the second unit will take a little longer to organize due to their more complex nature.. it helps the members are already trained soldiers... the familiarization process with their equipment will be the second hardest factor, the rushed nature of the units being the first..."

(1) Indian opinion. We have no idea if the message have any effect in the Shah's decisions.

Britain objects to any Indian troops being stationed along the Iraqi border. The Karachi Agreement provides for security of Iraq.

Although we respect the measures taken not to inflame British opinion we would perfer just Persian Gendarmerie troops to patrol the Iraqi border. Afterall we don't know India's long term interests or ambitions.

So Britain prefers that Japan, which is not bound by the Karachi Agreement, sends troops to be stationed along the Iraqi-Persian border?

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Originally posted by Hood
Britain objects to any Indian troops being stationed along the Iraqi border. The Karachi Agreement provides for security of Iraq.

Although we respect the measures taken not to inflame British opinion we would perfer just Persian Gendarmerie troops to patrol the Iraqi border. Afterall we don't know India's long term interests or ambitions.

Bharat's inform His Majesty Government that no Indian troops will be stationed near the oil fields or in Persia at all. The troops being stationed in that region are Persian in origin and commanded by Persian officers. The British nation is more than welcomed to help in the payment of those troops if they so desire. Bharat's concern is the safety of the oil production facilities, one we know we share with Great Britain. Perhaps Great Britain will prefer the presence of Japanese troops instead?

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Britain objects to any Indian troops being stationed along the Iraqi border. The Karachi Agreement provides for security of Iraq.

Although we respect the measures taken not to inflame British opinion we would perfer just Persian Gendarmerie troops to patrol the Iraqi border. Afterall we don't know India's long term interests or ambitions.

We assure the British Government that border patrols and other internal security measures will continue to be carried out by Persian Police/Customs/Gendarme personal that has never been the responsibility of the Army. We also note that the Karachi agreement did not specify a demilitarized zone along the border. If the British Government has any other concerns feel free to send a delegation to Teheran discuss these.

Now everything is clarified Great Britain is satisfied. The oil wells are a source of British and Persian wealth so the security of the oil wells is paramount. Britain will share any intelligence over threats to the oil fields with Persia and India.

GB does not favour any other Satsuma nation guarding them either. (I'm picturing Manzo crashing into an oil derrick or Smoking Philpinos hanging around!) This just won't pass any Health & Safety regulations.

November 16th 1935- Colonel Singh showed a facade of indifference to the news of the replacement of the armored car company on his battalion for more Argun tanks but inside we was very pleased with them. That will increase the size of our tank forces by another sixteen to twenty tanks.(1) I feel sorry to lose the men of the armored car company but the firepower increase is indeed too much to dismiss out of hand.

He was unaware of the reason of the change on his unit but his battalion being with the 7th Cavalry Regiment the test beds for the operational use of the Argun and Satyaki vehicles he suspected the reason was to test all of the ones on service with one unit instead of sending them to another battalion. (2) If the rumors are true that another tank battalion will be sent here to train with us as soon as they receive their Arguns (3) means the Old Man got his way. (4) I only hope all this works at the end.

(1) the newest tanks out of the factory.

(2) part of the reason. The other is to sent the armored cars to the new Security Forces being raised for Persia.

(3) The 2nd Jagganatha Bn will receive their full complement of sixty Arguns around late April or early May 1936.

(4) Field Marshall Bahadur.

November 27th 1935-

Letter to the editor of The Statesmen (1):

Dear sir,

The agreements with first Australia and later with Great Britain have shown to the world that indeed Bharat is willing to discuss a peaceful way to resolve disputes, contrary to the rabble that calls The Hague home. They are despicable and should learn from the honorable men from Canberra and London. Australia has shown that they are an independent thinking nation and not a puppet as we used to think of them. And for that I'm very appreciative.

My point is that we should try to expand our commercial and economic ties to that nation. We share the same concerns in regard to trade in the Indian Ocean as they do plus is incredible that not a regular airship route exists between our nation and theirs. Why? Maybe because we are still thinking they are an enemy when in reality they aren't. They maybe signed SEAR, but could it be their sense of honor forced them to follow the lead of Great Britain as any son shows respect to their elders?

As such I ask is for the government of our glorious Raj to give them all the time they need to find who have their best interests in mind. I'm not saying for them to cut the ties to Great Britain, a nation that have shown to be ruled by honorable men, but for them to find the path that is best for them.

A. K. Chamadutta, President Bank of India

(1) Oldest newspaper in India. Founded by British but allowed by the Raj to continue to run after the British were expelled.

Good thing I live 37 kilometers away from Amsterdam.
... BTW, if A. K. Chamadutta is referring to the government, the Dutch government is located in Den Haag (The Hague) which is about 15 kilometers from where I live.

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Originally posted by Rooijen10
Good thing I live 37 kilometers away from Amsterdam.
... BTW, if A. K. Chamadutta is referring to the government, the Dutch government is located in Den Haag (The Hague) which is about 15 kilometers from where I live.

I knew that.I guess the rabble will be closer to your house now after I edit the post.

As long as the distance does not drop to 0, then I have no problem with it.

December 1st 1935- Commander Muhammad Ali Kammakutty sat on his regular table in the cafe near the Bharat's Embassy in Berlin, sipping his tea while entering notes in his diary. He suspected at least more than half of the employees in the cafe supplemented their salary with a nice monthly payment of at least one or more intelligence services, the cafe well located near by to at least ten embassies or more. That was the reason he wrote his notes following a personal code to ensure his notes were useless to anyone else if he "misplaces" somehow his notebook.

He put his notebook down and closed it, then took a sip from his tea. So China is leaving the Battlecruiser Taipei in the Indian Ocean for an extended stay, do they? I will not be surprised it eventually the news of an Chinese Indian Ocean Squadron appear in the papers. He knew the BNS were in a five year moratorium in regard to building capital ships but China was not included in that deals.

His train of thought was interrupted by the arrival of the person he was waiting for, Lt. Commander Hans Gruber of the Kriegsmarine. "I will be brief. I got a pressing engagement but here is what you ask for." Muhammad looked at the stack of papers in folder that the German put on the table while the German continued to talk. "My superiors will deny ever passing this info along but they gave their tacit agreement. Some even joked that they are paying back the Dutch for putting more cinders on the fire while we tried to fan the flames during the Lithuanian Crisis." Then he smiled, turned around and left, leaving Muhammad with the feeling that his last sentence was just a jest on his part.

He opened the folder and smiled. Germans don't want to make it too easy but is a start. No working unit but the schematics are all here. A define start indeed. He closed the folder, finished his tea and left the cafe with very important info for the BNS.

December 8th 1935- Foreign Minister Kadharni read the reports from the Embassy in Siam and shook his head. First Persia and now this. What will be next? The news of the "abdication" of the Siamese ruler was being viewed with skepticism by the members of the Embassy, saying probably a bloodless coup has occurred instead.

Kadharni, reading thru the many reports of the Pishachas in Siam, tried to get an estimate of the situation inside that country. The private talks with them during the last months failed, I guess the pro-European faction was victorious after all. But what that will bring to that country? The analysis was that for now no threat existed to Bharat but that could change.

OOC: Of course this is Bharat playing with common knowledge. Not the opinion of Siam.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
He opened the folder and smiled. Germans don't want to make it too easy but is a start. No working unit but the schematics are all here. A define start indeed. He closed the folder, finished his tea and left the cafe with very important info for the BNS.

Oh good, the plant worked.

Remember, the Dutch are well aware that various 'friends' give technical aid to the Indians, and others are indiscrete regarding what they sell, and the Dutch conduct affairs with that awareness.