WesWorld

I'll work some US types into the Greek Air Force. Northrop A-17s maybe?

So far I've fixed it as 7 fighter squadrons, 6 bomber and two recon and one transport. That's double the OTL level but more in line to combat Turkey's massive air force.

The seperate naval air arm will be much larger due to the big carrier fleet. Seven wings of 36 aircraft each, plus seaplanes and flying boats.

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
Considering the forces facing the Yugoslav/Serbian border (old allies in the last three wars) one division seem small even if the population exchange has lessened secondary threats

also you have to take into consideration mobilization. IMO you could get ten more divisions out of the recall of conscripts. In average that could take ten to fifteen days to get them organized and on the move. You can't be everywhere at the same time and you need a credible reserve. Over 1/3 of the total Greek Army is on reserve to plug holes as necessary until reservists reach the front.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Good work, Perdedor. Looks pretty spot-on.

I was thinking the EPK/Pyrkal "light machine gun" would be introduced as historical in 1939. Let me think a bit more on submachine guns - perhaps something ahistoric for them?

Thanks. One year difference should not make a lot of difference in regard to the Pyrkal. In regard to the sumachine guns, perhaps a licensed copy of the French one at the time?

A-17As would make a fair amount of sense. A-20s are another possibility as well.


The EPK looks like a great weapon to replace SMGs with in the Evzones, at least to start with: it would give those troops better ranged capability while still having the full-auto capability of the SMG.

Royal Hellenic Air Force

Ever since its creation the Royal Hellenic Air Force has been operationally, and economically, hampered by the lack of trained aerial-minded officers (and a tradition like the other armed forces) and lack of funding, due to differing requirements of the Army and Navy which eventually forced the Navy to create its own independent air arm. Since 1933 re-equipment with British aid has rebuilt the air force and a series of purchases of French and American aircraft along with home-grown designs has kept the frontline squadrons modern despite their small size. The Central Flying School, Technical Training School, Gunnery and Armament School, Signals school and Electrical Engineering School all operate on a pooled basis serving both the Royal Hellenic Air Force and the Royal Hellenic Naval Air Force.

Each squadron has twelve aircraft
The Royal Hellenic Air Force currently has;
Seven Fighter Squadrons
Six Bomber Squadrons
Two Reconnaissance Squadrons
One Transport Squadron
One Central Flying School
A Technical Training School, a Gunnery and Armament School, a Signals school and an Electrical Engineering School

1 Sqn, Larisa, fighter, 12 Gloster SS.37 Gladiator
2 Sqn, Nea Achialos, fighter, 12 Hawker Hurricane I (Boulton Paul P.94 by late 1939)
3 Sqn, Thessaloniki, fighter, 12 Gloster SS.37 Gladiator
4 Sqn, Tanagra, fighter, 12 Boulton Paul P.94
5 Sqn, Tanagra, reconnaissance,12 KEA K-4
6 Sqn, Suda, bomber, 12 Northrop A-17
7 Sqn, Araxos, bomber, 12 Douglas A-20
8 Sqn, Andravida, fighter, 12 Hawker Hurricane I (Boulton Paul P.94 by late 1939)
9 Sqn, Iraklion, fighter, 12 Boulton Paul P.94
10 Sqn, Berat, fighter, 12 Gloster SS.37 Gladiator
11 Sqn, Berat, bomber, 12 Northrop A-17
12 Sqn, Araxos, bomber, 12 Northrop A-17
13 Sqn, Suda, bomber, 12 Douglas A-20
14 Sqn, Larisa, reconnaissance, 12 Westland Lysander
15 Sqn, Maleme, bomber, 12 Douglas A-20
16 Sqn, Athens, transport, 3 De Havilland D.H. 89 Dragon Rapide and 2 Lockheed Electra
Central Flying School, 34 KEA-built Avro 504, 24 De Havilland D.H. 82 Tiger Moth, 10 Avro 621 Tutor, 7 Avro Sea Tutor and 15 North American NA-16 (KEA to licence build another 25 by 1941).

Fighters

Gloster SS.37 Gladiator; a single-seat biplane armed with four 7.92mm MGs. Total orders for 36 fighters were placed in 1932 and 1933. They are being replaced by the KEA K-5 IERAX light fighter.
Dimensions; 32.3/ 27.5/ 11.7/ 323 sq ft; 1x 830hp Bristol Mercury IX; max speed 257mph; range 440 miles and service ceiling 33,500ft.

Hawker Hurricane; in 1933 Greece ordered 24 Hurricane I fighters powered by the Rolls-Royce Peregrine and armed with eight 7.92mm MGs but now these are being replaced in frontline service by the Boulton Paul P.94.
Dimensions; 40/ 32.2/ 13.1/ 257.5 sq ft; 1x 870hp RR Peregrine I; max speed 307mph; range 480 miles and service ceiling 34,000ft.

Boulton Paul P.94; in mid 1938 Greece ordered 65 new Boulton Paul fighters to replace the Hurricanes and to expand the fighter fleet and they will be powered by the Rolls-Royce Merlin VI and armed with four 20mm cannon.
Dimensions; 39.4/ 35.4/ 12.2/ 250sq ft; 1x 1,280hp RR Merlin VI; max speed 360mph; range 520 miles; rate of climb 3,235 ft/min and service ceiling 30,350ft.

KEA (NFA, National factory of Aviation) KEA K-5 IERAX
This Greek fighter developed with French assistance flew for first time in 1937 and was accepted by the EVA (Royal Hellenic Air Force) in 1938 and they soon placed an order for 72 aircraft to replace the current Gladiators and for gunnery training and to create two more fighter squadrons by 1941. Armament is six 7.92mm MGs and the engine is a licence-built 890hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y.
Dimensions; 11/ 8.8/ 2.5m; 1x 890hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y; max speed 327mph; range 695 miles; rate of climb 2,598 ft/min and service ceiling 32,800ft.

Bombers

Northrop A-17; in 1932 Greece ordered 36 two-seat A-17s to replace the Breguet Br.19 bombers then in service. The standard armament is four wing-mounted 7.92mm MGs and one dorsal MG plus a bombload of 1,200lbs. Twelve more have been built by KEA (NFA, National factory of Aviation) as the KEA K-4 during 1937 under licence equipped with cameras in the bomb bay for the reconnaissance role whilst retaining the underwing bomb racks.
Dimensions; 47.9/ 32/ 11.10ft; 1x 1,000hp Wright R-1820-G3 Cyclone; max speed 226mph; range 700 miles and service ceiling 19,400ft.

Douglas A-20; in 1937 Greece sought a new modern fast light bomber and after rejecting the Bristol Blenheim it was decided to purchase 36 A-20s. Deliveries began in early 1938 and each three-seater is armed with four 7.92mm MGs fixed in the nose plus two in a dorsal mount and one ventral MG. Bombload is 4,000lbs.
Dimensions; 61.4/ 47.11/ 17.7/ 465 sq ft; 2x 1,700hp Wright R-2600-A5B Twin Cyclone; max speed 339mph at 10,000ft; range 1,050 miles and service ceiling 23,700ft.

Reconnaissance

Westland P.8 Lysander; in 1936 12 were delivered to 14 Squadron as tactical reconnaissance aircraft. The two-seater uses full-span leading edge slots to achieve a remarkable short take-off and landing performance. Armament is two 7.92mm Browning and one similar MG in the rear cockpit. 240lbs of bombs or supply packs can be carried on stub wings fixed to the undercarriage spats.
Dimensions; 50/ 30.6/ 14.6/ 260 sq ft; 1x 890hp Bristol Mercury XII; max speed 212 mph, range 600 miles and service ceiling 21,500ft.


Royal Hellenic Naval Air Force

Seven carrier wings (36 aircraft) numbered I to VII, each has a fighter, dive-bomber and torpedo-bomber squadron (mostly two torpedo bomber squadrons in practice) equipped with Gloster Sea Gladiators or Gloster Gannet fighters, Fairey Swordfish torpedo-bombers and Curtiss Hawk III dive-bombers
Three Naval Coastal Reconnaissance Squadrons, 12 Hawker Osprey each
Four Naval Reconnaissance Squadrons, 12 Supermarine Stranraer each

Fighters

Gloster SS.37N Sea Gladiator; a navalised Gladiator with arrestor hook, catapult spools and dingy stowage, Greece received 60 in 1934 from Britain as a partially British-funded purchase but these are being phased out by the newer Gannet and the last should retire in 1940. All are armed with four 7.92mm MGs.
Dimensions; 32.3/ 27.5/ 11.7/ 323 sq ft; 1x 830hp Bristol Mercury VIIIA; max speed 252mph; range 440 miles and service ceiling 33,500ft.

Gloster SS.39 Gannet: developed from 1933 the type entered British service in October 1936 and just one month later 36 were ordered for Greece with a follow-on order for 54 in mid 1938. All should be in service by the end of 1940 aboard the carrier fleet. Armament consists of six 7.92mm Browning belt-fed machine guns in the wings.
Dimensions; 38.2/32.6/10.2/230 sq ft; 1x 1,400hp Bristol Hercules I; max speed 326mph at 16,000ft; range 580 miles and service ceiling 34,000ft.

Torpedo Bombers

Fairey Swordfish; in mid 1933 Greece had 100 Swordfish on order from Fairey with Britain buying 30 of these on behalf of Greece. Ten more with floats fitted were delivered during 1937 and the last wheeled torpedo-bombers were completed in 1936. Two/ three crew are carried along with two 7.92mm MGs and one 21in torpedo or bombs and mines up to 1,500lbs under the wings.
Dimensions; 45.6/ 35.8/ 12.4/ 607 sq ft; 1x 690hp Bristol Pegasus IIIM; max speed 130mph; range 1,030 miles and service ceiling 10,700ft.

Fairey Barracuda; designed by Marcel Lobelle and due to become the standard British carrier-based torpedo-bomber Greece has ordered 48 Barracudas for delivery from mid 1939. Armament is one 1,500lb torpedo or three 500lb or six 250lb bombs in an internal bomb bay and four wing-mounted 7.92mm Browning MGs in the wings and one dorsal Browning MG.
Dimensions 49.2/ 39.9/ 12.3/ 414 sq ft; 1x 1,080hp RR Merlin III; max speed 240 mph, range 1,150 miles and service ceiling 16,600ft.

Dive Bombers

Curtiss Model 68 Hawk III; Greece ordered 72 Hawk III biplane carrier-based dive-bombers in 1935 and these form the navy’s dive-bomber squadrons. Powered by a 770hp Wright R-1820 Cyclone these aircraft have an armament of two 7.92mm MGs and a bombload of 470lbs and can be used as secondary fighters.
Dimensions; 31.6/ 24.4/ 9.11/ 262 sq ft; 1x 770hp Wright R-1820-04 Cyclone; max speed 225mph; range 725 miles; rate of climb 2,150 ft/min and service ceiling 27,000ft.

Flying Boats and Seaplanes

Supermarine Stranraer: this six-seat flying boat has an all-metal hull and fabric covered biplane wings and the armament is three twin 7.92mm Browning MG mounts and a bombload of 1,000lbs. Greece brought 48 in 1934.
Dimensions; 85/ 54.10/ 21.9/ 1,457 sq ft; 2x 875hp Bristol Pegasus X; max speed 165mph; range 1,000 miles and service ceiling 18,500ft.

Short S.25 Sunderland; four ex RAF Mk I Sunderlands were supplied by Britain in early 1938.
Dimensions; 112.9/ 85.3/ 34.6/ 1,687 sq ft; 4x 1,010hp Bristol Pegasus XXII; max speed 195mph; range 2,500 miles and service ceiling 17,400ft.

Hawker Osprey: A navalised Hart with or without floats and folding wings and strengthened for catapult launching. From 1930 45 entered service and all have been upgraded to Osprey IV standard with a 630hp Kestrel II engine. Armament is one dorsal 7.92mm MG. Dimensions; 37/ 29.4/ 10.5/ 339 sq ft; 1x 640hp RR Kestrel V; max speed 176mph; range 400 miles and service ceiling 25,000ft.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The seperate naval air arm will be much larger due to the big carrier fleet. Seven wings of 36 aircraft each, plus seaplanes and flying boats.

I know from looking through the archives that the first Greek carrier plane was the "Fairey IID". If that helps.

Also - don't forget that Greece has KEA, the state aircraft factory, which license-built Avro 504s as late as 1938. KEA might work up some more modern planes via license, too.

Edit: nevermind, Hood beat me to the post!

What's the Gannet? I've seen the specs but I'm trying to visualize it...

When it comes to armor dont forget the domestic light tank

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=7246&sid=

Quoted

Originally posted by Navarchos
Sorry Guys but it's my falt!
I thought tha i can manage Greece team but due to my work i have no time for that...if any body is interesting for greece just tell it!
I hope we can cooperate and give my ships designs for further use by Greece!!!

I wonder if any of you saw this....and we should probebly get a new player for Greece.

Quoted

Originally posted by TexanCowboy

Quoted

Originally posted by Navarchos
Sorry Guys but it's my falt!
I thought tha i can manage Greece team but due to my work i have no time for that...if any body is interesting for greece just tell it!
I hope we can cooperate and give my ships designs for further use by Greece!!!

I wonder if any of you saw this....and we should probebly get a new player for Greece.

Yes, I did.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Navarchos
Sorry Guys but it's my falt!
I thought tha i can manage Greece team but due to my work i have no time for that...if any body is interesting for greece just tell it!
I hope we can cooperate and give my ships designs for further use by Greece!!!

Okay then, sorry to hear that.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
What's the Gannet? I've seen the specs but I'm trying to visualize it...

I'm sure I posted a picture once somewhere. Anyhow it looks like the Gloster F.5/34, just with a Hercules radial.


I added the Greek aircraft you mentioned on edit when I read your post. I haven't added any French types since outside of the Transall and Ripon-Bloch types I know nothing of what France has in WW. The navy seems to lack seaplanes but there's not much else to better the old Hawkers in performance athough a new player could decide a new type.
I favour the Battle over the A-17 but given the American flavour it fits better. I didn't add any Atlantis aircraft since as they supply Turkey I felt it was politically akward for Spartan etc to supply both sides and Turkey might object to Greece having identical types.

Does Turkey have any Atlantean aircraft? Last time I checked they didn't...

There are no amphibious forces or dedicated troop transports in the Greek encyclopedia, so what am I missing?

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
There are no amphibious forces or dedicated troop transports in the Greek encyclopedia, so what am I missing?

Correct, not in the Greek encyclopedia. There's apparently been some stuff that was never posted, or was removed, from the Greek encyclopedia. Greece has a number of amphibious units in their OOB, though:

Quoted

Special transports (5+0)
Landing Craft (32+0)

(The Greek submarines are another one. If they weren't in the OOB, there'd be no evidence of their existence.)

Turkey only has MTB's built in Atlantis, thats about it. With the Bulgarian's aquiring Atlantean 5.1" naval guns Turkey may follow suit in an effort to standardise weapons between allies.

Greece has a bunch of converted lighters similar to British designs used at OTL Galipoli.

The scout cruisers were rebuilt as AA platforms and now a large part of the fleet are carriers. The Macedonia was rebuilt for service to 1940 but, what are the concerns of Greece after the reconstruction of their fleet? What else they need?

I must admit, I'm a bit puzzled at that myself, and its made a bit awkward because not everything is posted in the Greek encyclopedia, and some things, such as dates, are incorrect. One of the things we need to do first is figure out the exact state of the Greek submarine fleet. The total numbers are posted and I have found some rough Springsharps for one or two of the classes, but we need to go back and determine precisely what Greece has. Ditto with their auxiliaries - types named, and found deep in the archives, but not in the encyclopedia.

Greece, IMHO, does not need any more carriers, being (IMHO) rather overpowered in that category. (I feel the current carriers are a manpower drain, and their mission could have been accomplished far better with land-based aircraft.) Heavy and armoured cruisers seem antithetical to Greek doctrine (as I understand it), and Greece seems to be sitting pretty on a large fleet of CLs and DDs/Destroyer Escorts.

I'd like to suggest that the three of us caretaking Greece accept designs based on majority vote - preferably unanimously, but I'm not going to absolutely insist on that. Would also like to suggest that one person be in charge of posting all threads in the Greek encyclopedia, so we don't end up with a muck of different posters slapping stuff into a bunch of different threads.

Addition regarding the Greek submarines:

- Here's a Greek submarine: Delphinos
- Unposted Nemesis-class has 22 units (dates unknown)
- Unposted Hermes-class submarine
- Unposted (possibly retired) R-class submarines

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval
Greek Submarine Development

Greece started with three French built submarines pre ww1. Greece watched developments during the Dardanelles campaign where a single German submarine forced the withdraw of heavy fire support ships and RN & RAN submarines penetrated the straits and operated against Turkish shipping in the Sea of Mamara. The conclusions were that submarines were a grave threat to a seaborne invasion and only submarines can penetrate the Dardanelles. Greece has largely ignored the war on merchant tonnage as it failed but in the face of defended targets (convoy) by 1918, two out of every three attacks were on the surface at night. With the CT dictating smaller submarines coupled with Greeces need for opposing an invasion force and possible operations in and past the Dardanelles, the submarine staff have eliminated the gun from the needs of a Greek submarine. Post war development started with the aquisition of RN R-Class submarines because they were capable of high underwater speeds (the current in the Dardanelles is about 3 knots from the Black Sea) and they were on the disposal list. The four ex-R class (Hermês Class) were followed by slightly improved versions built locally, the Nemesis class running to twenty two units. The Nemesis replaced the Hermês Class's 6x18" torpedoes with 4 harder hitting 21" topredoes. The high speed submarines are short legged so a series of special transports have been built to move submarines to operational areas. These transorts have also been found to be usefull in carrying the navy's X-lighters (landing craft). Following exercises, a new transport design better suited for both submarine transport and X-lighter transport are to begin construction this year.

I'm searching the sim reports to count up the Delphinos-class built.

I tend to agree with your analysis. Must likely the R's are gone but if the numbers are correct that is a large coastal submarine force. Also all I can think off is that his carrier force is aimed more to the West than to the East.

Your recommendations in regard how to run new projects sounds ok to me.

Here's the list of the Delphinos-class - seventeen units since 1932. Nemesis-class appears to be an improvement on the Hermes, which is in turn an improvement of a WWI British R-class.

- Delphinos (S30) - laid down Q2/32.
- Aphrodite (S31) - laid down Q4/32.
- Astra (S32) - laid down Q3/33.
- Boreas (S33) - laid down Q3/33.
- Diktynna (S34) laid down Q2/34.
- Hephaistos (S35) laid down Q2/34.
- Nike (S36) laid down Q3/34.
- Persephone (S37) laid down Q3/34.
- Phobos (S38) laid down Q3/34.
- Porphyrion (S39) laid down Q3/34.
- Phorcys (S40) laid down Q2/35.
- Oreithyia (S41) laid down Q2/35.
- Morpheus (S42) laid down Q2/35.
- Melinoe (S43) laid down Q3/35.
- Lampetia (S44) laid down Q4/35.
- Kratos (S45) laid down Q4/35.
- Kalligeneia (S46) laid down Q4/35.

Not finding any Springsharps for the other boats, I'm going to attempt to make some Springsharps for R, the Hermes, and the 21" Nemesis over lunch. (Edit: Brock headdesks after realizing the Hermes-class is ex-RN R-boats.)

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Here's the list of the Delphinos-class - seventeen units since 1932. Nemesis-class appears to be an improvement on the Hermes, which is in turn an improvement of a WWI British R-class.

- Delphinos (S30) - laid down Q2/32.
- Aphrodite (S31) - laid down Q4/32.
- Astra (S32) - laid down Q3/33.
- Boreas (S33) - laid down Q3/33.
- Diktynna (S34) laid down Q2/34.
- Hephaistos (S35) laid down Q2/34.
- Nike (S36) laid down Q3/34.
- Persephone (S37) laid down Q3/34.
- Phobos (S3 laid down Q3/34.
- Porphyrion (S39) laid down Q3/34.
- Phorcys (S40) laid down Q2/35.
- Oreithyia (S41) laid down Q2/35.
- Morpheus (S42) laid down Q2/35.
- Melinoe (S43) laid down Q3/35.
- Lampetia (S44) laid down Q4/35.
- Kratos (S45) laid down Q4/35.
- Kalligeneia (S46) laid down Q4/35.

Not finding any Springsharps for the other boats, I'm going to attempt to make some Springsharps for R, the Hermes, and the 21" Nemesis over lunch. (Edit: Brock headdesks after realizing the Hermes-class is ex-RN R-boats.)

that makes it easier. There is still a break between the S26 and S30. 4 R's and twenty-two Nemesis still
is three hulls short if we go by the numbers of the Delphinos. (Hulls S27 to S29)