WesWorld

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
I don´t understand why Columbia/Atlantis should be concerned about the SAE pointing out they have bad feelings about Brazil war mongering again.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
So I sense Columbia/Atlantis want to have a single-sided view because of some other reasons. Reasons not yet known to the SAE but surely it has nothing to do with either selling warships or keeping the Brailians at bay.

We are concerned about the SAE threatening to widen the conflict in the region. Puru has attacked Colombia unprevoked and in our veiw should be seen as a much greater threat to peace in the region than Brazil.

Brazil has merely extended the courtesy of allowing a small Colombian riverine fleet access through a river they both share so that Colombia can reclaim territory clearly taken by force in a blatent act of agression. Access was granted after a polite request by the Colombian government. We would assume the SAE does not think that Colombia should be denied the means nessassary to liberate its lands, but statements thus far could be miss-interpritated.

It would be most unfortunate if this sequence of diplomatic courtesy's between neighbours was used to justify a renewal and expansion of hostility's in the region under the pretext of "warmongering". Colombia has not asked for Brazil to join us in war, merely for access though territory that is quite limited due to terrain.

Privately Bharat offers support to the SAE for any action they deemed necessary due to the events unfolding in South America.

Folks, tell me when you're ready for the next installment!

NOW!

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Originally posted by perdedor99
NOW!

...right! Okay then!

Right. Next section's up now, aaaand I'll bet this will cause some serious debate, both IC and OOC.

Another nice installment gentlemen, and I do agree it will cause some debate, seeing as this is the first capital ship sunk by aircraft while underway in WW. However, it must be mentioned that Huascar was not really a modern ship, bering constructed in 1908, something the pro battleship advocates will no doubt mention. As well, the attack was made in near textbook perfect conditions, which are not always available, the carrier battle at the end of the SA war being an example of this.

Awesome, action again.

The joint operations between Chilean and Atlantean forces would be fairly hard to organise, things were difficult even when the same language was being used, even when in the same navy.

Huascar needed some warning of the attack, more effective AA and more escorts. The surprise seems to have done for her more than anything else.

The Chilean Mapuche has been for the better part of 9 months, training with the Atlantean Pacific group so most of those co-ordination issues should be removed . That said I'm sure there are still some there.

Had Huascar been warned she may have survived, given the size of the strike the smaller Alioth and Mapuche could muster up. Larger carriers would be able to muster up either larger strikes or cycle more smaller ones in. It is abit of a shock that the surprise was so total, perhaps the Peruvians put their stock in the big gun ships and not aircraft, or at least they did anyway.

had she been steaming home at 20-22 kts, which may have been wise given her lack of air cover. Was it known to the Peruvians that enemy CVs were in the vicinity?

While very well written, I am personally dissapointed. I wanted to get my hands on that ship, and also wanted Mexico to be the first to sink a major warship at sea via airpower (after all Mexico was the first country to attack a ship via the air). Sucks that it was the Huascar and that the BBs didn't get any target practice.

Maybe I'll have to start a rumor that an unidentified submarine was seen in the area...

Thanks for the comments!

First, I will note that despite Huascar's fairly advanced age, she received a refit in 1926 which gave her twelve 3" AA guns and sixteen 25mm guns, which IMHO is a fairly decent flak battery for a ship of her vintage. It's certain you could wish for more 40mm guns and so forth, but there are certainly battleships in WW that aren't as well armed in the AA department. (Points as an example to the Bulgarian battleship Varna.)

Second; I agree surprise had a fair bit to do with her loss. The dive bombers hit her when she was still bringing the plant up to accelerate to flank speed: it's possible that at 23+ knots she might not have taken that first critical hit from the dive bombers which resulted in her hobbling.

Third, I must point out that although I didn't make a big deal about it, the Huascar had interceptor cover for the second attack. The Peruvian fighters, however, got distracted by the escorting Buchons and completely failed to do their CAP job. If the CAP had been larger, or the pilots hadn't been distracted by the fighters, this too might result in a different outcome.

Fourth. Organizationally, the Chilean-Atlantean joint carrier ops would indeed be extremely tricky. Part of the reason I set that up was the belief, OOC, that I don't have the force available to escort her properly, and I don't want to put her in a cruiser squadron or a battleship squadron and risk mixing up her roles. The similarity of Mapuche and Alioth presented a good solution for the Chileans to keep their carrier in-theatre, give her a proper escort force, and keep the ship from becoming a liability/casualty when the battlelines collide. As part of the Mapuche's assignment to the APF, the ship was virtually removed from the Chilean chain of command - Admiral Montero can give the carrier an order without worrying that Santiago will try to veto it, or that some other Chilean admiral with more seniority will attempt to "borrow" the ship. Most importantly, Mapuche is a Chilean-built carrier and the Chileans learned their carrier operations from the Atlanteans; so there's a fair amount mutual experience. Both ships will have a few different procedures, but there will still be most of the same knowledge base. Finally, although Wes and I didn't discuss it, I'd expect that Mapuche would have Atlantean liaisons, including some Spanish-speaking signal officers - and Atlantean-fluent Chileans as their opposite numbers - and Mapuche would have all the appropriate Atlantean codes.

Fifth - surprise or no, good conditions or not, the Huascar took a terrific pounding. I rate SAE construction as being in the top tier of their profession, even for these old battlewagons: the ship took six torpedoes and three bomb hits, and several OTL ships of Huascar's vintage were significantly damaged or nearly-sunk by lesser hits. For instance, the Italian battleships at Taranto, though they sank or were intentionally grounded in shallow water, and so were reparable. Of the three torpedoes which hit the Huascar's TDS, two failed to make any substantial impact besides damaging the TDS itself; the third hit an area already weakened by the previous torpedoes. It was this third torpedo which is most to blame for the ship's loss. Two torpedoes struck aft and flooded the engine rooms, but these weren't so directly responsible for her loss.

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Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
I wonder if she would have made it had she been steaming home at 20-22 kts, which may have been wise given her lack of air cover. Was it known to the Peruvians that enemy CVs were in the vicinity?

In answer to the former... yes and no. She might have evaded the aircraft, or escaped being sunk by them, but it's unlikely she could have escaped the battleships closing in on her. The Chileans were coming north with the two Latorres, the two Valparaisos, and the two Oyamas; the Atlanteans were overtaking with two Memnons. Its likely that Huascar might have escaped the carrier strikes and then run smack-dab into six battleships all substantially faster and better-armed, and with the exception of the Chilean battlecruisers, better armoured.

In answer to the second - yes, in general they were. They knew the carriers were likely at sea, but they were not aware of the exact locations.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
While very well written, I am personally dissapointed. I wanted to get my hands on that ship, and also wanted Mexico to be the first to sink a major warship at sea via airpower (after all Mexico was the first country to attack a ship via the air). Sucks that it was the Huascar and that the BBs didn't get any target practice.

Sorry about that. We discussed several options of ships to be lost in the war, and for the Peruvians, the one big ship which was most... "disposable" for story purposes was the Huascar. There were two pitches I gave for the outline of this story: this battle, and an alternative where the Chilean Almirante Gideon is sunk by aircraft.

I'm not sorry, though, that the battleships didn't run into each other. With the forces involved, it could only have turned into a gentlemanly slaughter of well-armed men.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
While very well written, I am personally dissapointed. I wanted to get my hands on that ship, and also wanted Mexico to be the first to sink a major warship at sea via airpower (after all Mexico was the first country to attack a ship via the air). Sucks that it was the Huascar and that the BBs didn't get any target practice.

Its most likely that a nation with a significant CV force would be the ones to achieve that goal, simple law of averages. Unfortunately for Mexico Peru picked a fight with Colombia and not Mexico.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
Maybe I'll have to start a rumor that an unidentified submarine was seen in the area...

Good luck with that You'd be competing with 3 other nations propaganda, 2 of which can verify the others account, while the third would likely dismiss the ship was sunk at all.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
Thanks for the comments!

First, I will note that despite Huascar's fairly advanced age, she received a refit in 1926 which gave her twelve 3" AA guns and sixteen 25mm guns, which IMHO is a fairly decent flak battery for a ship of her vintage. It's certain you could wish for more 40mm guns and so forth, but there are certainly battleships in WW that aren't as well armed in the AA department. (Points as an example to the Bulgarian battleship Varna.)

That was the 1931 refit that she got before being transferred to Peru. The 3" and 25mm battery was chosen to match the guns on Lima, which was the heaviest vessel currently in the inventory.

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin

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Originally posted by Desertfox
Maybe I'll have to start a rumor that an unidentified submarine was seen in the area...

Good luck with that You'd be competing with 3 other nations propaganda, 2 of which can verify the others account, while the third would likely dismiss the ship was sunk at all.

So quick you all are to discount the various rumors of black-suited notreamericanos seen suspiciously operating near Huascar's berth shortly before she sailed.

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
Thanks for the comments!

First, I will note that despite Huascar's fairly advanced age, she received a refit in 1926 which gave her twelve 3" AA guns and sixteen 25mm guns, which IMHO is a fairly decent flak battery for a ship of her vintage. It's certain you could wish for more 40mm guns and so forth, but there are certainly battleships in WW that aren't as well armed in the AA department. (Points as an example to the Bulgarian battleship Varna.)

That was the 1931 refit that she got before being transferred to Peru. The 3" and 25mm battery was chosen to match the guns on Lima, which was the heaviest vessel currently in the inventory.

Ah, I saw 1926 on the guns and figured her for an earlier refit...

Quoted

Its most likely that a nation with a significant CV force would be the ones to achieve that goal, simple law of averages. Unfortunately for Mexico Peru picked a fight with Colombia and not Mexico.

The first capital ships sunk while underway in OTL where not sunk by CV based airpower...

Unfortunately for Mexico, Peru picked a fight with Columbia a year too early. In the meantime the Mexican crack Special Bombardment Force (15 torpedo armed He-111s) stationed in Caracas, is fuming that they had to sit this one out. Cause that is exacly the type of mission they have trained for.

It confirms experience in the SA war, co-ordination of attacks was difficult and the torpedo bomber proved itself a deadly weapon, more so than the dive-bomber. Argentina favours the torpedo for critical underwater damage, using the dive-bomber to wreck the AA defences and upperworks (and get any possible hits into the vitals through the deck armour if possible).

A good read and much to think about. Even a refitted 1908 ship is not really much of a test. Wait until a modern battleship gets sunk, and of course the Allies had overwhelming naval power and no enemy threat to their carriers. Something neither side enjoyed during the carrier Vs carrier battle in the SA war. The Allies had all day to sink the battleship without fearing enemy bombers hitting them. That makes the battle one-sided in critics eyes.

To me the story was a good and interesting read. Thanks for posting - and please provide more Whangs! ;o)

I´m honored to hear you rate SAE constructions as in the top tier of their kind. But as you said, even more modern design would have succumbed to such treatment. Neither crew nor designers can be blamed for the loss of that ship - but I cannot let out Perus Admirality of their responsibility. It´s been like asking for desaster sending out such ship without exactly knowing where the enemy has its forces and without being able to provide enough cover for the BBs operational area. To me it looks much like a suicidal mission just from the very beginning.

One last word about ships being "disposable" for story reasons - this is too easy. If you´re only willing to loose the old and worn out you will not be able to set up interesting stories. Why shouldn´t a navy use its most modern and most capable units to great extend when those units are those most likely to cause harm to the enemy? So you´ve got to risk them, meaning you can loose them. It will also be too predictable for readers to be really interesting, IMHO. So for good story reasons you should probably not think about what is "disposable" but what asset makes for an interesting read.

MORE! MORE! Bharat is looking with interests as their former units are being destroyed.