WesWorld

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Guys, stay cool.

I have patience but there is a limit.

Ditto, I've seen an arguement made here in a VERY poor manner.

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
So basically the ridiculous is fine so long as it's not Italy?

This isn't a serious design, just a historical possibility used to illustrate a point.

What Wes and Hoo (and others) are attempting to point out, is that while you may or may not have a valid complaint, rather than having a respectful and serious discussion on the topic, it looks like (and you seem to have admitted to) planting this admittedly preposterous design in your encyclopedia to goad people into complaining about it, and somehow get to your point in some roundabout and petty fashion.

And since I'm appearently the intended target in all this, I've refrained from commenting thus far. And aside from attempting to clarify why people seem miffed, I'll resume abstaining from the discussion.

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What Wes and Hoo (and others) are attempting to point out, is that while you may or may not have a valid complaint, rather than having a respectful and serious discussion on the topic, it looks like (and you seem to have admitted to) planting this admittedly preposterous design in your encyclopedia to goad people into complaining about it, and somehow get to your point in some roundabout and petty fashion.

And yet no one cares when I've made the point repeatedly in the past. Now Italy does the same as other countries and suddenly it's some sort of magic.

What are we supposed to do - have moderators vote on or veto designs that are "not realistic"? If a player insists on prototyping ridiculous designs, ignoring (potentially valid) criticism and refusing to change them, should we ban them or something? Seriously, I'd like to know. I can remember plenty of criticism leveled at Mexican, Canadian, etc aircraft designs from *other* people, RA, so people *do* care and do take notice...

Pointing on historical designs to argue in favor of a nations capability can be misleading anyway.

Historically Italy could not design and build reliable inline engines comparable to foreign pieces and finally build German engines under licence. Call me ignorant, but that´s what I learn from my books, though I´m truly not an expert on this particular issue. However, using such reference would make me wonder how Italy could be capable of developing such powerful engines now available in WW.....

That said, I think there was much potential in Italian designs and some different leadership decisions would have brought them light. So are Italian WW designs more realistic or less realistic than Australian or Mexican fighters introduced here? Actually, I can´t tell. And what about SAE design? There is no historical precedence. So although I try not to boost performance beyond what I rate reasonable level, it´s all still much better than anything historical. Looks like I´m toast too.

Because of all this, I fully agree with Brockpaine. We can post critic but there has to be some leeway and we cannot force somebody to take note and change a design accordingly. All that "reasonable" players can do is to deny power gamers participation in their story arcs, leaving them alone with their super-duper-über designs.

Every player nation in WesWorld is a micro cosmos of its own.

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Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc

What Wes and Hoo (and others) are attempting to point out, is that while you may or may not have a valid complaint, rather than having a respectful and serious discussion on the topic, it looks like (and you seem to have admitted to) planting this admittedly preposterous design in your encyclopedia to goad people into complaining about it, and somehow get to your point in some roundabout and petty fashion.

Yep, thats exactly what I'm saying.

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Because of all this, I fully agree with Brockpaine. We can post critic but there has to be some leeway and we cannot force somebody to take note and change a design accordingly. All that "reasonable" players can do is to deny power gamers participation in their story arcs, leaving them alone with their super-duper-über designs.

Which is exactly why nations that have had complaints about them before, find themselves pleading for trouble and can't get any bites....

RA, I would like to point out something. For example, Latvia is building designs that are definatly possible, within the laws of physics. They may have been 'ahistorical' designs, but they were definatly possible, as the three prototypes built were proven to work by Soviet occupation troops. In about a year, I plan to introduce the I-19, a plane building upon the previous, about 150 MPH faster, but a lot heavier.

My point is, mine are possible and realistic within the world of physics and the state of technology. That definatly isn't. This, frankly, would be powergaming if built, as everything else would be obsolete. Frankly, that would take the realism aspect out of WW for me.

Just my two cents....

Given WW's other issues, complaining that Country X doesn't have the capacity to design item Y (if it's within the technical parameters for the period) seems mostly pointless. If we went down that road, pretty soon only the biggest nations would have the capacity to design or construct items, the smaller nations would be forced to buy all their equipment from the larger nations. Is that "realistic"? Arguably, yes, for the most part, but it certainly wouldn't be a lot of fun for those smaller nations. And without a much more detailed economic and technical development system than we have, how do we determine (besides looking at a time-based baseline) what's out of range?

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Historically Italy could not design and build reliable inline engines comparable to foreign pieces and finally build German engines under licence. Call me ignorant, but that´s what I learn from my books, though I´m truly not an expert on this particular issue. However, using such reference would make me wonder how Italy could be capable of developing such powerful engines now available in WW.....

There isn't much good published on Italian aviation in general. Italy could design and build reliable and powerful inline engines, because they actually did. Who knows about the 3000hp liquid cooled 28cyl engine (and aftercooled with two stage supercharger and fuel injection) Alfa-Romeo built and tested during the war? The problem was that in the mid 30s, the government decided to go with radials instead. No indigenous radials so mostly licence produced and tweaked foreign designs. Come the late 30s, it's realised a mistake has been made and inline design and production starts up again but the war gets in the way. Easier to buy DB601 off the shelf than finish development of the indigenous engines. Here I've pursued a more rational strategy sticking with inline development, at the expense of the Piaggio radials, the Fiat radials and the Isotta-Fraschini air cooled inlines. Hence, more resources going into fewer projects giving a better chance of success. Then there's no historical sanctions on Italy which helps with importing some commodities to solve a few specific problems. All in all, very rational and reasonable.

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Every player nation in WesWorld is a micro cosmos of its own.

That's fair enough. I've been pursuing Italian development along reasonable lines towards an end and outside events aren't having too much influence on that. On the other hand, Yugoslav news states they've suddenly increased the size of their submarine fleet by 200%. I think it's time to concentrate on anti-submarine warfare in the Adriatic a bit more. Italy's aims are fairly clear, as given in the strategic defence review I did earlier (basically stop India expanding westwards towards Ethiopia and the Med.). A lot of development here seems to be more along the lines of "let's build lots of cool stuff" whether it be useful or appropriate.

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Is that "realistic"? Arguably, yes, for the most part, but it certainly wouldn't be a lot of fun for those smaller nations.

It's surely possible to go from; small country that didn't do much historically -> small country that does a couple of things fairly usefully. Rather than the situation now; small country that didn't do much historically -> massive technological superpower

"Who knows about the 3000hp liquid cooled 28cyl engine (and aftercooled with two stage supercharger and fuel injection) Alfa-Romeo built and tested during the war? "

I for one do not; would you have a model number or other reference for it; I would like to research it.

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I for one do not; would you have a model number or other reference for it; I would like to research it.

Alfa-Romeo L1101

The lack of sources on Italy isn't helped with much of the country's technical archives being destroyed 1943-45. Unlike Germany where all the cool* sketch designs are displayed on Luft 46. Still, Italian Secret Projects book next year.



*and mostly ridiculously impracticable and/or unworkable

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I for one do not; would you have a model number or other reference for it; I would like to research it.

Alfa-Romeo L1101

The lack of sources on Italy isn't helped with much of the country's technical archives being destroyed 1943-45. Unlike Germany where all the cool* sketch designs are displayed on Luft 46. Still, Italian Secret Projects book next year.



*and mostly ridiculously impracticable and/or unworkable

I am sorry, but a fragmentary mention in one forum discussion group does not a valid source make. Particularly when it merely refers to 'some other site'.

"Trust but verify", old Klingon proverb

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I am sorry, but a fragmentary mention in one forum discussion group does not a valid source make.

There are sources that aren't the internet, especially when the only discussion group mention I could find with google was by myself.

Very well,

Three pictures are better than a fragmentary reference. Impressive ironmongery. Does data exist to go along with them?

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Originally posted by BruceDuncanThree pictures are better than a fragmentary reference. Impressive ironmongery. Does data exist to go along with them?

Not a massive amount given that the prototype engines were destroyed in 1943 by partisans. 50L displacement 7x4 configuration. There are a few Italian language sources which may have more details.

It's pretty stunning that an engine up with R-4360, BMW803, R-7755 etc. to be basically unknown. It wasn't the only large late war Italian inline engine either.

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Originally posted by Red Admiral

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Originally posted by BruceDuncanThree pictures are better than a fragmentary reference. Impressive ironmongery. Does data exist to go along with them?

Not a massive amount given that the prototype engines were destroyed in 1943 by partisans. 50L displacement 7x4 configuration. There are a few Italian language sources which may have more details.

It's pretty stunning that an engine up with R-4360, BMW803, R-7755 etc. to be basically unknown. It wasn't the only large late war Italian inline engine either.

Book citation?

Ali Antiche 41/42
A Story of the Alfa Romeo Factory and Plants, Italiano P.
Dall'Elica al Getto. Breve storia dei propulsori aeronautici, Federico Filippi

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
Ali Antiche 41/42
A Story of the Alfa Romeo Factory and Plants, Italiano P.
Dall'Elica al Getto. Breve storia dei propulsori aeronautici, Federico Filippi

I concede that book citations exist. Unfortunately, I cannot find them on line and do not have access to a library where they might be found.

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I concede that book citations exist. Unfortunately, I cannot find them on line and do not have access to a library where they might be found.

As I said, access to stuff on Italy in general in hard to come by. There just isn't the interest in the English speaking world to translate stuff or make it available. Italian Secret Projects (carrying on from German/British/American/Russian series) should be out next year to a bit of a wider audience.

Does anybody knoe "Courage Alone: The Italian Air Force 1940-1943"? Is it worth the money?

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Originally posted by HoOmAn
Does anybody knoe "Courage Alone: The Italian Air Force 1940-1943"? Is it worth the money?

Supposed to be one of the best (and simply available) books on the subject and not too expensive. It's a bit of a niche subject so the price is higher than it'd otherwise be.