WesWorld

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

I used the path option to make a big cross where it is on Google Earth and then used the surrounding border shapes to determine where it is on the big map... and after having done that, it is even further into Indian territory then I originally thought.

That was about what I thought too, close but on the other side of the border. I do not know what the intent of the players were when OTL Burma was split between Bharat and Wesworld Burma, and perhaps the current players could enlighten the matter.

To be honest I've never really looked at the Indo-Burmese border in detail and compared it. I assumed it was historical but obviously not.
I don't know why it differs from OTL*. Perhaps Rocky can provide some detail or reasoning?


*I assume its due to the general feast the players had off the European powers that were NPCs at the start of the game. Several bits of Britain's empire seem to have gone that way!

Quoted from "Hood"

To be honest I've never really looked at the Indo-Burmese border in detail and compared it. I assumed it was historical but obviously not.
I don't know why it differs from OTL*. Perhaps Rocky can provide some detail or reasoning?


*I assume its due to the general feast the players had off the European powers that were NPCs at the start of the game. Several bits of Britain's empire seem to have gone that way!

Yes, there are a number of departures from historical territories, and other anomalies. But this is the game we have chosen to play and we make the best of them. Unfortunately, we run afoul of ambiguities.

Due to the land dispute .... another route is been investigated. The track will start in the Burmese port of Rangoon and run over Suida, through the valley of the Salween River, Jingdong and Jiang Hong to Simao.


This track is now on burmese territory

Quoted

The track will start in the Burmese port of Rangoon and run over Suida

You know, I end up in India when entering "Suida". Isn't that a bit of a detour?

Quoted

through the valley of the Salween River

If you intend to follow that valley into China, then you end up crossing Indian Territory again.

Quoted

Jingdong and Jiang Hong to Simao.

Looking with Google Earth, I see Jingdong, can't see Jiang Hong, but there is a Jianghong restaurant in Kunming and I see Simao, but Simao is going back to the Burma/China border... sounds to me like the Chinese officials laying out the plans of the railroad got drunk when they reached that restaurant.

The mentioned route is the southern one .... here named Sprye-Route ... according to OTL plans of the british R. Sprye. May be the name of the towns are a little bit unknown or false, because i found them on a german web-side (Link). Comparing it with present maps .... i would say, the route starts at Rangoon ... via Pegu ... Toungoo ... Pyinmana ..... Taunggyi ... Namsang ... Ta-kaw .... Simao.

And in my eyes ... we are only on burmese territory or ????

I think that your latest route proposal ought to be completely on Burmese territory; if Rocky weighs in as to where the Bharat/Burma border lies that could change. Of course the terminal on Chinese territory would need to be linked with the rest of the Chinese rail system.

I would not want to think of the cost of building this railway though. There is a reason why the map annotates this route as "aber nie verwirklichte". :rolleyes:

Well, you mentioned Jingdong first in that list which is, when looking at Google Earth, roughly where the 'H' and 'O' are of Yunzhou on the first map you posted. I could not find a Jiang Hong, but like I said, there is a Jianghong restaurant in Kunming. That is still going into the right direction. But then you mention Simao which is marked on your map and is going back towards the border.

Funny that you mention that route, because I was thinking of suggesting that perhaps you should cross the border at Mongla/Daluozhen...

https://www.google.nl/maps/@21.6761858,100.0527056,13z?hl=en

... which is exactly where you would end up crossing the border between Ta-kaw and Simao.

Quoted

And in my eyes ... we are only on burmese territory or ??

Only if you do not keep following the Salween River into China... which is kinda the impression I got especially when you then mentioned Jingdong.

Quoted

I would not want to think of the cost of building this railway though. There is a reason why the map annotates this route as "aber nie verwirklichte".

Well there are some 'hills' blocking the way...

That bit is actually nothing compared to what I have planned for Navalism: The Iron Silk Road and the Iron Tea Horse Road. Both railroads come out at a total of $900,000,000 (based off the 1916 value of 770 million - 1 billion US dollars for the Trans Siberia Railway) in 1904. The Iron Tea Horse Road is especially challenging as it takes the railroad up and over the Nathu La Pass. According to the inflation calculator, the cost of those two sections of railroad would be $2,232,740,145 in 1947. Granted, that what parador has planned comes nowhere near that amount, but it is not going to be funded by a few million dollars.

The thing is to plan it right as you would either have to tunnel through those 'hills' or climb over it and if you climb over it, you would have to take the railroad's grade into account which could require that the route becomes longer to keep the grade low.

I've realised I have to rethink my whole Burmese history and everything. Even some of the RAF stations I've posted are well inside Indian territory.
Really never had realised how big the border change was and obviously everyone, including Rocky, has been oblivious to these errors when I've made numerous Burma related posts in the past!
We seem to be running into ambiguities more and more these days.

So some changes are necessary in several areas, leaves me with some work to do over the weekend.

As to the southernmost route, yes I'd say that is safely within Burmese territory.

06. December; Harbin Herald
First Units will be equipped with the "Feilong - II" rocket. This rocket is an extension of the "Feilong - I" and / or should replace it.


Feilóng - IIA
Typ: Rocket
Ammunition: Fragmentation-HE
Length 2,87 m
Diameter 132 mm
total weight 66,6 kg
warhead weight 21,0 kg
Speed 620 m/s
max. Range 20.500 m



Feilóng - IIB
Typ Rocket
Ammunition: Anti-Tank mines
Length 3,04 m
Diameter 132 mm
total weight 57,7 kg
warhead weight 22,8 kg
Speed 620 m/s
max. Range 13.400 m


Feilóng - IIC
Typ Rocket
Ammunition: Smoke
Length 2,95 m
Diameter 132 mm
total weight 66,0 kg
warhead weight 20,2 kg
Speed 620 m/s
max. Range 20.000 m


Also Incendiary, Chemical, Illumination, Antipersonnel mines ammunition is possible.

I haven't done the research on it, but I thought using rockets (or artillery shells) to drop mine bomblets was more of a 1980s technology. Can you please provide supporting evidence that it was possible during the 1940s?

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

I haven't done the research on it, but I thought using rockets (or artillery shells) to drop mine bomblets was more of a 1980s technology. Can you please provide supporting evidence that it was possible during the 1940s?

*Air-dropped* bomblets appeared in the 1940, but I've found nothing on minelets. I'd be interested in seeing any historical references as well.

Both right ..... no anti-tank-mine warhead used in that rockets. It's used in the modern version so ... back to the past we have corrected:

Feilóng - IIA
Typ: Rocket
Ammunition: Fragmentation-HE
Length 2,87 m
Diameter 132 mm
total weight 66,6 kg
warhead weight 21,0 kg
Speed 620 m/s
max. Range 20.500 m



Feilóng - IIB
Typ Rocket
Ammunition: Incendiary
Length 3,04 m
Diameter 132 mm
total weight 57,7 kg
warhead weight 22,8 kg
Speed 620 m/s
max. Range 13.400 m


Feilóng - IIC
Typ Rocket
Ammunition: Smoke
Length 2,95 m
Diameter 132 mm
total weight 66,0 kg
warhead weight 20,2 kg
Speed 620 m/s
max. Range 20.000 m

So is this based on a real-world exemplar? If so, which? I'm looking at the cited range and it looks quite long for something dating from the 1940s.

The Feilong-System is based on the OTL Katyusha-Weapon-System.

About the range ... the OTL BM-13SN (World War 2 weapon) had a range of 11.8 km so i would say my 13km are not too unrealstic. Also the OTL Henschel HS-293 (another WW2 weapon) had a range of 18km so my 20km are in the same area.

Quoted from "parador"

The Feilong-System is based on the OTL Katyusha-Weapon-System.

About the range ... the OTL BM-13SN (World War 2 weapon) had a range of 11.8 km so i would say my 13km are not too unrealstic. Also the OTL Henschel HS-293 (another WW2 weapon) had a range of 18km so my 20km are in the same area.

Data for the projectiles for the OTL Soviet Katyusha-series of rocket launchers can be found here.

The M-13DD 132mm rocket did have a range of 11.8 kilometers – however, the weight of its warhead was only 4.9 kg; the closest comparison to the Feilóng-series of rockets in terms of projectile weight would be the M-20 rocket, with a maximum range of 5,520 meters, and even there the projectiles of the Feilóng series claim significantly larger warhead weights. The information presented for the Feilóng series is far closer to the BM-21 Grad which dates to the 1960s.

As for the Henschel Hs293, that is an air-launched anti-shipping weapon, whose operational performance was far less than the figure you cite. Please see.

Comparing it, an air-launched glide weapon, with a ground-to-ground bombardment rocket, is irrelevant.

Sarkasm mode on
Okay ..... it looks like a 20km rocket is too modern for an antique and antiquated China i have to play here in wesworld.
sarkasm mode off

so compare it with the BMD-20... this system was developed in the late 40s ... here we have a range of 19km a rocket weight of 194kg and a 30kg warhead. So i will modify the stats in that direction.

Feilóng - IIA
Typ: Rocket
Ammunition: Fragmentation-HE
Length 3,04 m
Diameter 200 mm
total weight 194 kg
warhead weight 30,08 kg
Speed 575 m/s
max. Range 18.750 m



Feilóng - IIB
Typ Rocket
Ammunition: Incendiary
Length 3,04 m
Diameter 200 mm
total weight 178,3 kg
warhead weight 25,8 kg
Speed 590 m/s
max. Range 13.400 m


Feilóng - IIC
Typ Rocket
Ammunition: Smoke
Length 2,95 m
Diameter 200 mm
total weight 175 kg
warhead weight 20,2 kg
Speed 535 m/s
max. Range 17.500 m

You have now projected an entirely different weapon system, of larger caliber - one which was not fielded until at least 1951. So be it. It is rather difficult to evaluate a moving target.

Quoted

As for the Henschel Hs293, that is an air-launched anti-shipping weapon, whose operational performance was far less than the figure you cite. Please see.

Comparing it, an air-launched glide weapon, with a ground-to-ground bombardment rocket, is irrelevant.

The pdf of the datasheet on the English wiki page indicates that it was usually released from an altitude of 3000 to 5000 feet at a distance from 3 to 5 miles. The rocket has to cover those two given distances so one can assume that it can cover the distance of 3 miles when dropped at 3000 feet and 5 miles when dropped from 5000 feet.

However, the values on the wiki page itself indicate 2.49 miles when dropped from 7200 feet altitude, 3.42 miles from 13000 feet and 5.28 miles from 16000 feet. That does not really match the values in the U.S. military intelligence datasheet. I am more inclined to believe that report and the values given by the German wiki page than the values that the English Wiki gives (they look a bit off to me as well). Now looking at the Polish wiki page, I think that the "Zasięg 18 km (pułap zrzutu 10 000 m)" bit indicates that the 18km range was achieved by dropping it from an altitude of 10,000 meters.

Regardless of all that, the Hs293 remains a weapon that was dropped from an aircraft and it really needs a high altitude to achieve that 18km range. Like you indicated Bruce, comparing the Hs293 with a ground-to-ground rocket is like comparing apples with oranges.

Quoted

it looks like a 20km rocket is too modern for an antique and antiquated China i have to play here in wesworld.

I doubt it is too modern for antique and antiquated China alone. I am pretty sure that it is too modern for the other nations as well, including those who, in the news, are quite busy with elaborate rocket programs, launching them into space.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Quoted

it looks like a 20km rocket is too modern for an antique and antiquated China i have to play here in wesworld.

I doubt it is too modern for antique and antiquated China alone. I am pretty sure that it is too modern for the other nations as well, including those who, in the news, are quite busy with elaborate rocket programs, launching them into space.

I tend to agree. Even the people I'd normally identify as the leaders in the field - Russia, Germany, the US - didn't really get a lot of range out of their historical weapons, although I didn't really realize it until I started looking more closely at all of the historical types.