WesWorld

Considering that the South Africans were disqualified due to minor 'weight' discrepancies, the decision to allow the German engine 'modifications' seems rather biased.

So you noticed.......

That american "neutral judge" should be shot!

No idea who the judge is.

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Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

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3. Entries must be production machines, that is to say they must be in regular service or approaching the end of testing and entering service within six months. This does not cover any modifications to service machines

4. Engine tuning is allowed and some engine modifications, superchargers may be fitted to improve performance and fuel additives may be used.

Unless a 109 with that sprint engine is entering service in 6 months, I doubt she qualifies under #3, and swapping engines is a little bit more than "engine tuning".

But like I said it make for good storyline fodder. One can be impressed by the potential, or swing the opposite way and decide that one was cheated of victory decry the Umpires! Or anything in between.

The sprint engine is a modified DB-601, which is the standard engine for the Bf-109B series, which will be entering service in November of 1934. Heck, taking a normally unsupercharged engine and installing a supercharger is a larger modification than the was made to the sprints, and that's explicitly allowed under #4.

I have to agree regarding the engine issue, especially since the Germans are swapping around three different engines. As I read the rules, you're only allowed to use the one enigne that is in the plane (and any necessary backup engines of the same type with the same tuning/modifications/etc. should the main engine fail dramatically).
Regarding the South African issue, as I read the rules given, there is nothing I can find that indicates that it is not allowed to lighten a plane.

IC: Due to the engine issue at this year's Cordoba, Japan only recognize Major J.H. Doolittle as the true winner of this year's Talons over Cordoba competition. If swapping different engines was allowed, Nakajima would have replaced the main boosted engine with a more reliable non boosted engine when they ran into problems with the supercharged Sakae engine last year.

Heck I would have fiddled with engines too but, Cest la vie. At least Atlantis took first in the high altitude trials without any controversy. Tyrus "Bulldog" Hadrian also seemed to have some bad luck in a promising aircraft design.

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At least Atlantis took first in the high altitude trials without any controversy.

I wouldn't say that. A 7000ft per minute climb rate is unheard of until jet fighters postwar. Considering the SP-20 in the encylcopaedia is rate with a 2200fpm climb rate (similar to Miles M.20) I'm figuring it was either a typo or a large bunch of RATO packs.

I meant storyline wise. Just beating Italy would stir up controversy...from the Italians.

Anyway I'd say theres more than one typo considering Mexico took second on a slightly slower climb rate..

Spartan Sp-20 Corsair, 35.4mps
Mapache A-1, 30 mps
CR.35bis 22.2 mps

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson

The sprint engine is a modified DB-601, which is the standard engine for the Bf-109B series, which will be entering service in November of 1934. Heck, taking a normally unsupercharged engine and installing a supercharger is a larger modification than the was made to the sprints, and that's explicitly allowed under #4.

Ahh, my misunderstanding of intent then, I thought it was an engine modified for racing, though I question the appropriateness of making the Sprint engine standard.

The "Sprint engine" sounds like the special souped up racing 1,650hp version fitted to Milch's bf109 V13 in November of 1937. None of the 109E models appear to have used it stock, nor did the engines used approach that power. For that matter, the much later bf109G-6 only had a 1,455hp engine.

So while your intent may genuinely be to make it production, it is a wee bit advanced, and at this point I'll regard it as a racing engine that will likely fail to make the transition to stock. 8P

For the record, the Dutch view is more in the "Hmm, look at those things go!" category than the "Hey, they stole it!" category.

Speaking of Teniente Cielocaminante, the fact that the A-1 Mapache has its armour removed should prove that there are no rules regading lightening the plane, making the bit on disqualifying the South African even more ridiculous.

IC: Regarding the weight incident, Japan does not recognize the jury's decision of disqualifying Adolph Malan due to the supposed 'illegally' lightening of the airframe and calls it an 'illegal' decision made by a biased jury. Japan only recognizes Adolph Malan as the true winner of the 8 MILE RACE GROUP 4 race.

The United States believes that the rules for the competition are vague enough that the disqualification of Malan is somewhat dubious, as are complaints over the German engine swapping. Perhaps next time there could be separate categories for "factory stock" and "unlimited" fighters, with clear rules as to what modifications are allowed and which are not. (The P-35 is in somewhat of a gray area as well, since even before Cordoba there were serious doubts about the design, though it will provide the basis for more advanced models.)

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Anyway I'd say theres more than one typo considering Mexico took second on a slightly slower climb rate..

As I said - RATO packs.

Talons 1936 is looking interesting as countries begin to get more used to monoplanes and develop higher powered engines. Might have to switch to climb to 6000m which would be more appropriate for newer bombers. Probably enough time in which to bring a twin engined fighter.

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Originally posted by Rooijen10
Speaking of Teniente Cielocaminante, the fact that the A-1 Mapache has its armour removed should prove that there are no rules regading lightening the plane, making the bit on disqualifying the South African even more ridiculous.

IC: Regarding the weight incident, Japan does not recognize the jury's decision of disqualifying Adolph Malan due to the supposed 'illegally' lightening of the airframe and calls it an 'illegal' decision made by a biased jury. Japan only recognizes Adolph Malan as the true winner of the 8 MILE RACE GROUP 4 race.

It does seem rather odd that Mexico would be allowed to lighten their plane while the SAE would get disqualified for the same thing but then again I smell some IC shinanigans between the SAE and Argentina anyway.

Keep tabs on the news from both country's in the future!

As for RATO packs I think we are a tad bit early for that but looking at the climb rates for the SP-20 Corsair and the CR-35 (assuming the Bis version is similar) the SP-20 should still outclimb the CR-35, 2,150 fps vs IIRC 1,450 fps. The RB-132 should have also performed well minus the oil cooler problems.

I don't recall if the CR.35bis has a supercharger.

http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/060406_bohan.html

I might be wrong, but if I read this piece correctly, the record for getting to 3000 meters in the "unlimited piston engine aircraft" category is 1 minute 31 seconds, which translates to a climb rate of 32.97 meters per second. This record was set in 1972.

The Cordoba altitude trial uses the same 3000 meter altitude as limit. The Atlantean plane gets to that altitude with a climbing rate of 35.4 metres per second. This translates to 84.75 seconds, or 1 minute and 24.75 seconds.

Looing at that data, I think that the only realistic climbing rates are from the CR.35bis and the planes rated below that one.

(but of course I could be wrong...)

As RA said its likely a typo or a SNAFU when calculating from feet per second to meters per second.

That said I didn't calculate nor write the reports finer points! I'm just going by raw data from the encyclopedia in addition to mostly relying on James for my aircraft designs.

The CR.35bis with an Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI engine is supercharged with full throttle height of 4000m. That means that the engine gives 960hp until 4000m. The engine problems experienced with the CR.35 are not normal, the engine already being in service on the CANT Z.501 flying boat.

For rate of climb, a good indicator is power loading in lb per hp. The lower number is usually for aircraft that climb quicker.

CR.35bis 3.95lb/hp and 4300fpm
SP.20 6.75lb/hp and 2126fpm
Spitfire XIV 3.6lb/hp and 4500fpm
Mustang D ~5lb/hp and 3300fpm

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The engine problems experienced with the CR.35 are not normal, the engine already being in service on the CANT Z.501 flying boat.

Not normal? So you think one of the rival teams must have sabotaged the engine.

The only suprise for me was that the SP-20 Corsair beat the Mapache in the altitude trial. The Mapache was especially modified to excell there. Take a plane that's designed to carry 1,000lbs of armor and a 1,000lbs of weapons and remove that, that's a decendant of last year's winner with ANOTHER wing added, and has its regular low altitude engine replaced with a supercharged race engine, and you have a plane designed to CLIMB. Note that the armor was removed before the competition.

Then again maybe the Atlantean plane got a boost from thermals...

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Not normal? So you think one of the rival teams must have sabotaged the engine.

He, he, he...

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Originally posted by Red Admiral
The CR.35bis with an Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI engine is supercharged with full throttle height of 4000m. That means that the engine gives 960hp until 4000m. The engine problems experienced with the CR.35 are not normal, the engine already being in service on the CANT Z.501 flying boat.

For rate of climb, a good indicator is power loading in lb per hp. The lower number is usually for aircraft that climb quicker.

CR.35bis 3.95lb/hp and 4300fpm
SP.20 6.75lb/hp and 2126fpm
Spitfire XIV 3.6lb/hp and 4500fpm
Mustang D ~5lb/hp and 3300fpm

Great so the CR.35 is in the same range as late model Spitfires and Mustangs?

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Great so the CR.35 is in the same range as late model Spitfires and Mustangs?

I knew you'd make that point. Its simply the result of using a powerful engine and a small aircraft. The downside is carrying little armament, no external stores and having a limited range. I also imagine torque effects to be quite large for takeoff is problematic.

Compared to the 7000fpm of the Mapache....