WesWorld

Quoted

Pretty much anything out of Canada, Mexico or Australia over the last few years.

Care to elaborate? I would like to know what I have been doing wrong.

No comment on Canada.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I didn't really see much reason to limit Italy to what is possible or reasonable.

Well, I guess that says it all.

Guys, stay cool.

I have patience but there is a limit.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Just out of curiosity, which historical plane?

Unfortunately no one knows the name or designation but it's one of Campini's projects from 1940

It sounds as though the Campini Caproni C.C.7 'Toscana' might fit the bill, but, alas, it was no more than a paper project and a search doesn't even conjure up a drawing, estimated stats or anything else.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Guys, stay cool.

I have patience but there is a limit.

More puzzled than anything else.

Found the site with the stats of the Toscana and pretty much the same fight started there in regard of the capabilities of the aircraft. IMO no way that aircraft could have made the capabilities it proposed. Remember, it was 1942 and you need to give numbers of a war winning weapon to receive funding. It was just a pipe dream.

But it we go with the limits of what is possible and reasonable I guess Dr. Noah will release the new Syen IV in 1941 in addition to the some new weapons from his Himalayan laboratory.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Guys, stay cool.

I have patience but there is a limit.

I agree. The original site with the Toscana stats degenerated into a discussion that ended badly; with name calling, etc.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Found the site with the stats of the Toscana and pretty much the same fight started there in regard of the capabilities of the aircraft. IMO no way that aircraft could have made the capabilities it proposed. Remember, it was 1942 and you need to give numbers of a war winning weapon to receive funding. It was just a pipe dream.

But it we go with the limits of what is possible and reasonable I guess Dr. Noah will release the new Syen IV in 1941 in addition to the some new weapons from his Himalayan laboratory.

Could you send me a link to that site? I'd like to check it out.

Thanks!

There's really no information on the actual aircraft:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviat…901f59?lnk=raot

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Found the site with the stats of the Toscana and pretty much the same fight started there in regard of the capabilities of the aircraft. IMO no way that aircraft could have made the capabilities it proposed. Remember, it was 1942 and you need to give numbers of a war winning weapon to receive funding. It was just a pipe dream.

But it we go with the limits of what is possible and reasonable I guess Dr. Noah will release the new Syen IV in 1941 in addition to the some new weapons from his Himalayan laboratory.

Could you send me a link to that site? I'd like to check it out.

Thanks!

DF already posted the site. As you can see the stats are posted by one of the members. As DF said, there is really no information on the actual aircraft.

PS. Me taking the side of DF! What is the world coming to!

The link confirms to me what I thought when I initially saw the picture. But looking at other planes in Italy's encyclopedia, the Alfa-Romeo 135 RC.40 engines (as I read it) are radial engines, not jets. 'Copy-paste and forgetting to alter it' mistake perhaps? Every time I am messing around with planes, I need to look up which engine has which output so to me a mistake like that is easily made.

Quoted

PS. Me taking the side of DF! What is the world coming to!

Could be worse.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
There's really no information on the actual aircraft:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviat…901f59?lnk=raot

Thanks! I think our posts may have crossed in the ethernet.

I'm sorry, Rec Aviation Military is *not* a source in my book.

"Trust, but verify" Old Klingon proverb

Quoted

Care to elaborate? I would like to know what I have been doing wrong.

I'd say this aircraft goes some way to redress the historical capability gap between Italy and Mexico that isn't found in WW. Conjuring one ridiculously advanced design after another out of thin air doesn't really count as a line of development especially when they managed to build diddly squat in comparison historically. I can accept some improvement over historical lines, the but the numbers of designs, the advanced designs, the jets, the numbers being built, it's all got rather out of hand.

Quoted

I have patience but there is a limit.

It's not a serious design for adoption, I was using it as a "what if" to illustrate my point. A fairly rudimentary look at the aerodynamics raises some interesting questions about the estimated performance. There are also some more realistic designs which don't look too bad in a few years time. One is very similar to the Gloster Meteor.

Quoted

It sounds as though the Campini Caproni C.C.7 'Toscana' might fit the bill, but, alas, it was no more than a paper project and a search doesn't even conjure up a drawing, estimated stats or anything else.

Not even a paper project. That illustration was from Flight magazine in 1940 and shows the artist's impression of the Italian jet aircraft that had become the first jet to fly (publicly)

Quoted

There's really no information on the actual aircraft:

Hey, they stole the picture from my photobucket account. Original source is rather better than that. Most of the Italian archives being destroyed in the war, and the surviving ones still being basically impossible to access, don't go a long way towards information on Italian designs being freely available.

Quoted

But looking at other planes in Italy's encyclopedia, the Alfa-Romeo 135 RC.40 engines (as I read it) are radial engines, not jets.

It's Campini's motorjet design - a compressor assisted ramjet, with the compressor being driven by a piston engine. In this case, the AR 135. Power is different as historically Italy listed power at altitude rather than max power. Here I've usually gone over to max power for consistency.

I really didn't want to enter this debate, having seen this sort of thing before and where it can lead. However, it does affect me directly, seeing as the perceived bomber could easily strike the Romanian oil fields, and Romania has absolutely nothing to stop them with. My question is this. Why does Italy feel the need to build such a bomber that totally outclasses everything that flies in the world today? And unlike the last time such a leap was made, this is a bomber. A bomber by its very definition is an offensive weapon. Is this just a paper study, or is something bigger being planned by the Italians? And finally, if something bigger is being planned, Romania will of course support our allies in Yugoslavia and prepare the Army to move out at once, as well as put the Navy on alert.

All actions have consequences, RA developing an advanced fighter is one thing, although not economical if your existing fighters are already more than adequate for the task but thats a different topic. Developing a bomber that outclasses not only everything flying but everything likely on all other nations drawing boards for the next 5 years is something totally different.

My patience has a limit too, perhaps I should leave seeing as things are getting a bit out of hand.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Care to elaborate? I would like to know what I have been doing wrong.

I'd say this aircraft goes some way to redress the historical capability gap between Italy and Mexico that isn't found in WW. Conjuring one ridiculously advanced design after another out of thin air doesn't really count as a line of development especially when they managed to build diddly squat in comparison historically. I can accept some improvement over historical lines, the but the numbers of designs, the advanced designs, the jets, the numbers being built, it's all got rather out of hand.

*Personal opinion follows*

I think there's a legitimate point here, but the way you tried to make it looks... well, like you're throwing a temper tantrum at "not being uber!!1! enough". Again, just my personal take on it.

Quoted

I think there's a legitimate point here, but the way you tried to make it looks... well, like you're throwing a temper tantrum at "not being uber!!1! enough". Again, just my personal take on it.

It doesn't feel that way to me. Italy started producing realistic ahistorical designs, which got shot down because they weren't historical. Italy produces realistic historical designs, with a few changes to reflect WW differences, and gets shot down again for being ahistorical. This follows by now going for an unrealistic but historical design, and people still aren't happy.

All the while ridiculous designs are pursued elsewhere with no comments.

Quoted

Why does Italy feel the need to build such a bomber that totally outclasses everything that flies in the world today?

That's a valid point. It makes no sense for Italy to build such an aircraft. It doesn't fit a need in the air force. At the same time, I'd point out that historically Italian planes could waltz over Romania without anything being able to stop them. We don't have the same situation here in WW.

I really wanted to keep out of this discussion, but now it think it's time to say some sentences.

I, as player of China, will see this aircraft only as a "project study".... under the motto "what is possible".

All real designs beyond the start of WW2 are affected by this war !!! And in a war, the development time for weapon which need in peacetime several years shrinks down to only a few.

I was very happy to participate here so far, as it was just very realistic game, but now i make already my thoughts.

Quoted

Unfortunately Mexico is stuck with older technology.

Quoted

Same goes for Japan.

Peruvians project

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Guys, stay cool.

I have patience but there is a limit.

Ditto, I've seen an arguement made here in a VERY poor manner.

So basically the ridiculous is fine so long as it's not Italy?

This isn't a serious design, just a historical possibility used to illustrate a point.