WesWorld

And dont you dare blow her next to PM. ;-)

"Yes, Prime Minister."

Quoted

Out of curiosity, just how old are the ships everybody's using for training purposes?

Russia's using the predread Estafey, laid down 1903

http://admkuznetsov.tripod.com/id80.html


France is using Jean Bart, although expenses are high, and when France finishes the Duquesene class heavy cruisers this year, one of the Gambetta class armored cruisers (laid down in 1901) they replace will be spared the cutter's torch.

http://admkuznetsov.tripod.com/id51.html

I like TC29... I´d just use twins instead which is much better for training purpose I think.

Quoted

I´d just use twins instead which is much better for training purpose I think.

Hmm, I might play around a bit...tho a purpose-built "training cruiser" would have an emergency combat role, and I want the six-gun broadside. I'm not sure if a 3x2 A-Bs-X arrangement will work with the hull strength available...

Here's the SpringSharp version. I increased the beam a tick and played with the draught/BC some.

PRS Sabtang, Filipino Training Cruiser laid down 1929

Displacement:
1,800 t light; 1,889 t standard; 2,301 t normal; 2,631 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
346.83 ft / 337.93 ft x 40.03 ft x 11.45 ft (normal load)
105.71 m / 103.00 m x 12.20 m x 3.49 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x3 guns), 70.00lbs / 31.75kg shells, 1929 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts
6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 0.57lbs / 0.26kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts
12 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (2x4, 4x1 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1929 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, majority aft, 2 raised quad mounts aft

Weight of broadside 485 lbs / 220 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 13,701 shp / 10,221 Kw = 23.91 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 742 tons)

Complement:
165 - 215

Cost:
£0.683 million / $2.732 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 58 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 80 tons, 3.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 73 tons, 3.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 421 tons, 18.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,041 tons, 45.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 501 tons, 21.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 8.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,616 lbs / 1,640 Kg = 53.9 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.38 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Stern: 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Average freeboard: 15.14 ft / 4.61 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.6 %
Waterplane Area: 9,179 Square feet or 853 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 331 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Given her small size you can relax hull strength a little bit more. That should by you a 3x2 arrangement and probably a speed of 25-27kn. I don´t think more armor or speed is necessary for a training ship but you could try to get some splinter protection for your machinery spaces, too.

Quoted

(Pity about the reception Chile got in Asian waters...they might have had another customer and a potential ally to cover the other side of the Pacific....)

It was quite unfortunate that one side decided to claim an island group (not on his side of the Pacific) that was part of the "Neutral Zone".

Quoted

(Sorry, Swampy, but, "When in Rome...")

I think in the Wesworld it would be "When in the Philippines, do what the Filipinos do and blow up lots of stuf."
:-)
Hooman, how would the CT look upon a purpose built training cruiser? Because that is what the Sabtang is: a purpose built training cruiser. The CT might consider it to be a warship of the limited category should the speed be in excess of 24 knots.

A Neutral party in a "Neutral Zone"...that would have been just perfect for you. A little coaling stop so Chile didn't have to use British or any other foreign port while operating so far from home in anti-piracy activities. Sounded like a reasonable solution to a persistant problem on Southeast Asia.

A Treaty Training Cruiser? If the Philappines is forced into using treaty tonnage for a training ship, then it might as well make it a desent second or third rate cruiser to be used in defense of the home islands....or if they intend the cruiser for long range training tours, then it should be able to act as either a convoy escort....or a possible raider.

TC29 would belong to the unlimited category (GIb) in her current version.

The questions is if the Philippines can affort such ship without giving it enough power to use it as a standard, albeit small cruiser during a crisis?

If Swamphy says "yes" which I would say because of the material recovered from the scrapyards I´d build the version as posted.

..."Yes".

The original rebuild idea would cost 1402 tons. Scrapping the old ship instead means 427 tons are recovered...meaning I can build Sabtang with 29 tons to spare. :-)

My original concept was for a 2x2 6" arrangement but that would be Treaty fodder. I do/will have enough tonnage to spare to cover her, but I'd prefer to keep her in the unlimited category.

In a crisis, she'd probably be attached to the amphibious warfare force.

PRS Sabtang, Filipino Training Cruiser laid down 1929

Displacement:
1,803 t light; 1,889 t standard; 2,308 t normal; 2,642 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
346.83 ft / 337.93 ft x 40.03 ft x 11.48 ft (normal load)
105.71 m / 103.00 m x 12.20 m x 3.50 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 70.00lbs / 31.75kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts
6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 0.57lbs / 0.26kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts
12 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (2x4, 4x1 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1929 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, 2 quad mounts aft, all raised guns

Weight of broadside 459 lbs / 208 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 14,000 shp / 10,444 Kw = 24.03 kts
Range 7,600nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 753 tons)

Complement:
166 - 216

Cost:
£0.678 million / $2.711 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 55 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 89 tons, 3.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 81 tons, 3.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 430 tons, 18.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,030 tons, 44.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 504 tons, 21.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 8.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,586 lbs / 1,627 Kg = 53.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.38 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Quarterdeck (21 %): 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Stern: 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Average freeboard: 15.17 ft / 4.62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.8 %
Waterplane Area: 9,179 Square feet or 853 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 327 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.43
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily