WesWorld

Just want to make sure I've got this right...

The Filipino destroyer "D-4" was damaged beyond repair in a typhoon and is being scrapped.

In Q4/23, 116 tons of material and two 4" guns were recovered. The guns will be available in Q2/24 and the material in Q3/24, while the remaining 50 tons of material, recovered in Q1/24, will be usable in Q4/24.

Did I get that right?

So far I hadn´t time to write it all down. :o( I know the discussion about it was/is somewhat confusing...

The material you get from a ship needs two full quarters to recycle. If you get it in Q1 it needs Q2 and Q3 for recycling and will be available for new construction in Q4.

Guns taken off a ship in Q1 can be reused in Q2.

If you re-use guns taken off older vessels, you reduce the time to build a new vessel they´ll be installed on by 1 month.

Hope this helps and I haven´t twisted what we agreed on earlier... :o/

Regards,

HoOmAn

Sounds about right Hoo...

OK, thanks - looks like I get those guns back a month early.

One more question: how does one go about converting a ship into a training or target vessel? I don't see anything in the infrastructure rules about that.

Here are the rules for training vessels....

IX.

Vessels retained for training purposes

(a) Vessels retained for training purposes shall, within six months
of the date on which they are required to be disposed of, be
dealt with as follows:

1. Capital ships

The following is to be carried out:
(1) Removal of main armament guns, revolving parts of all
barbettes and turrets; machinery for operating turrets;
but three turrets with their armament may be retained in
each ship;
(2) Removal of all ammunition and explosives in excess of the
quantity required for target practice training for the
guns remaining on board;
(3) Removal of conning tower and the side armour belt between
the foremost and aftermost barbettes;
(4) Removal or mutilation of all torpedo tubes;
(5) Removal or mutilation on board of all boilers in excess of
the number required for a maximum speed of eighteen knots.

2. Other surface vessels

The following is to be carried out:
(1) Removal of one half of the guns, but four guns of main
calibre may be retained on each vessel;
(2) Removal of all torpedo tubes;
(3) Removal of all aviation facilities and accessories;
(4) Removal of one half of the boilers.

(c) The Contracting Power concerned undertakes that vessels retained
in accordance with the provisions of this Article shall not be
used for any combatant purpose.



As an example my Lyra class AC's are over the 15,000 ton limit for CA's and as such will have 2 of their 8.2" twin turrets removed along with their side and Conning tower armor. Speed is also reduced.

Quoted

Originally posted by Swamphen
OK, thanks - looks like I get those guns back a month early.

Pardon me, but we´re talking quarters here, not month.

Regards,

HoOmAn

Eek! I meant quarter, thanks.

Thanks for the info, but what I really need to know is, how does this affect the infrastructure? How long in dry-dock and how much material recovered? Obiously less than scrapping on both counts...

One last stupid question: the guns you recover, they can be stockpiled, right?

Guns can be stockpiled.

As for docktime - 40% of the time necessary to scrap a vessel has to be spend in a dock (otherwise the lower half of the hull would sink before you can get the material).

Those 40% are also used when building ships, that´s why I think of them. However, if the board agrees that beaching a ship also is an option you don´t need docking at all...but I´ll prefer docktime to be part of the rule.

I would think that nations with limited dock space would scrap their ships the old fasioned way, by beaching them in a sheltered lagoon and scraping as much as possible. In the 1920's historically I think there are very few nations who acctually take up dock space to scrap ships. We should definately look into this.

Actually, I thought the 'rule' was 1/3 of build time...

I guess my question wasn't clear enough. When you are converting a ship to a training ship or a target ship, not scrapping, is this done as a 'refit', 'rebuild', or something else?

Given the amount of work needed to convert a capital unit to a training ship I would rate it as a rebuild. Removing the side and CT armor is a significant modification. My Lyra class will come out with a rebuilt bridge structure to simulate a Menelaus class cruiser bridge and mount various types of guns.

My suggestion for the scrapping rules:

2.3 Breaking up of completed or incomplete units

Breaking up a ship takes 1/3 of the time necessary to build a vessel of its tonnage and size.

Ships of over 2000 tons must be scrapped in an appropiate drydock:
- 15% of light displacement plus guns can be reused
- once the ship is broken up entirely it will take 2 complete quarters to recycle the raw material recovered
- guns can be reused in the next quarter reducing the time necessary to build the new vessel by one month

Ships of under 2000 tons can be scrapped in drydock, following the above rules, or they can be hauled out and scrapped in place; but if this method is used only 7% of light displacement can be reused, and the guns cannot be reused.

I'd agree with 7% for a vessel scrapped on a beach or the like, but what is your reasoning for not allowing the guns to be re-used?
Surely as the first things off the ship to lighten it before hauling it out of the water, they should be ok for re-use?

Quoted

what is your reasoning for not allowing the guns to be re-used? Surely as the first things off the ship to lighten it before hauling it out of the water, they should be ok for re-use?

I was thinking that the ship is beached whole, and then scrapped; and since there would be no cranes available the guns would have to be dismantled to be removed, therfore not being re-usable.

If this doesn't make sense, feel free to let me know.

Coming from a non-naval background, it just seems to me that you would have cranes anywhere you were moving large loads around, and lightening the hull before pulling it out of the water would make logical sense.

I have seen photos of those beach scrapping operations in Africa and the Far East of the present day, (let's not mention the enviromental UN-friendly-ness of it all!), but I can't see any Navy leaving usable guns lying around when they could be used somewhere else!

The ships would definately have any reuseable items removed before thier scrapping, guns included unless they are very worn or obsolete.

I agree with the reduction in reuseable materials if you use the beaching method.