WesWorld

For Desertfox;

Slightly modified from 770 project battleship. 305mm guns in triple turrets are available second hand. So are the 152mm/53 secondaries(or they will be). Armour isn't that bad and speed is fairly good.

771, Italian Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
16,988 t light; 18,002 t standard; 19,192 t normal; 20,144 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
603.39 ft / 590.55 ft x 85.30 ft x 25.26 ft (normal load)
183.91 m / 180.00 m x 26.00 m x 7.70 m

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 996.49lbs / 452.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 33.07lbs / 15.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (12 mounts), 1.83lbs / 0.83kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,287 lbs / 3,305 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 374.02 ft / 114.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0.98" / 25 mm 374.02 ft / 114.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 374.02 ft / 114.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.6" / 270 mm 7.48" / 190 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 2.76" / 70 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 10.63" / 270 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 28.11 kts
Range 3,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,143 tons

Complement:
814 - 1,059

Cost:
£7.008 million / $28.031 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 805 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 6,075 tons, 31.7 %
- Belts: 1,893 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 322 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,188 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,508 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 164 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,392 tons, 12.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,616 tons, 39.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,204 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,808 lbs / 12,160 Kg = 31.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.92 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 18.57 ft / 5.66 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.6 %
Waterplane Area: 34,436 Square feet or 3,199 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 769 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Project 772 is a design I had on file. It sacrifices speed and a bit of armour for 343mm main guns.

772, Italian Small Battleship laid down 1935

Displacement:
17,083 t light; 18,106 t standard; 19,996 t normal; 21,509 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
618.00 ft / 606.96 ft x 85.96 ft x 25.26 ft (normal load)
188.37 m / 185.00 m x 26.20 m x 7.70 m

Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,433.01lbs / 650.00kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.31" / 135 mm guns (4x2 guns), 72.09lbs / 32.70kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.83lbs / 0.83kg shells, 1935 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9,207 lbs / 4,176 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0.98" / 25 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 9.06" / 230 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.54" / 90 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 60,000 shp / 44,760 Kw = 26.06 kts
Range 5,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,403 tons

Complement:
840 - 1,093

Cost:
£8.544 million / $34.174 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,002 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 6,302 tons, 31.5 %
- Belts: 2,421 tons, 12.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 310 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 1,182 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 2,345 tons, 11.7 %
- Conning Tower: 44 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,705 tons, 8.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,024 tons, 40.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,913 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,810 lbs / 13,522 Kg = 24.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.531
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.73 ft / 4.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.8 %
Waterplane Area: 35,770 Square feet or 3,323 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 808 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I like it. How about cutting speed down to 27kts and adding superfiring 8in triples? Tertaries could drop to 5in.

Cost is about right, Mexico just might buy this ship by 1933-34.

Superifirng 8" triples make no sense whatsoever. Why don't you just buy a pre-dreadnought instead if you want a split main battery?

6" guns are more than adequate against destroyers. Maybe best to go to 4" guns for the AA as that calibre is used on Mexico's torpedo boats.

She is a fairly capable modern ship that means that another naval power must deploy 1 or 2 modern ships to counter.

Quoted

Superifirng 8" triples make no sense whatsoever. Why don't you just buy a pre-dreadnought instead if you want a split main battery?

Neither do Armored Cruisers and yet the Chileans built one. Navies dont do whats most logical and I want something different. PDs are too slow.

And the ship is a logical progression from Santa Anna. Brodside 4x12" vs 6x12", 4x8" vs 6x8", 21kts vs 27kts, 9"belt vs 11" belt. Just what the mexican are looking for.

Then I can also boast that my ship has the heaviest secondary battery. :-P

Quoted

She is a fairly capable modern ship that means that another naval power must deploy 1 or 2 modern ships to counter.

Exacly what I need especially in price. And the only probable enemy is Iberia. This ship can take on one of the Iberian very Heavy Cruisers easily, and can match El Cid.

This is what I have in mind.

Arizaba, Mexico Battleship laid down 1933

Displacement:
16,990 t light; 18,021 t standard; 19,529 t normal; 20,736 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
595.00 ft / 595.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
181.36 m / 181.36 m x 25.91 m x 7.77 m

Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1933 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (2x3 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1933 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm guns (3x4 guns), 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,353 lbs / 3,335 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 375.00 ft / 114.30 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.00" / 25 mm 375.00 ft / 114.30 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 68,528 shp / 51,122 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,715 tons

Complement:
825 - 1,073

Cost:
£7.782 million / $31.129 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 919 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 6,111 tons, 31.3 %
- Belts: 1,921 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,454 tons, 7.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,564 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 172 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,997 tons, 10.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,864 tons, 40.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,539 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,095 lbs / 13,197 Kg = 33.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.530
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (19.00 ft / 5.79 m before break)
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 17.80 ft / 5.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.0 %
Waterplane Area: 34,642 Square feet or 3,218 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 793 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

And the customer is always right....

Were this Navalism I'd take it in a hot second. Chile will instead evaluate the notion of the Iberian "colonial" Battleships and lay down stuff in 1931 and 1932 I think.

So Mexico is abandoning its tendancy to buy from the U.S.? Why the sudden switch?

The Americans aren't selling that.

Though I imagine if asked they could come up with something far more interesting.

The opportunity has presented itself, whereas the US doesn't seem to be doing any capital ship designs for the near future.

Well they did just finish the Almirante Gideon for Chile, which was a requested scaled up verision of the New Ironsides class monitors (CDS) using existing 14 inch gun turrets of of USS New York. (with one new build/replacement turret added).

Note: the American ship would not have to be shipped all that far.

Note 2: Also the Chileans are a little crazy...based on their desire for big armored cruisers instead of light battleships and battlecruisers....but that's the times.

Still it doesn't seem to follow the pattern set for Mexico thus far.....

Mexico will cotinue to buy most of its ships from the US. Up to probably Heavy Cruiser. But this ship just caught my attention and she might end up with American weapons.