WesWorld

For those not following the Swamphen Destroyer request on Warships1.

Based on a couple of designs on that site, the minimum composite strength of a destroyer in SS2.1 should not be 0.5 as in the past. I have been simming real world (sorry for the profanity) destroyers of the late 1930s on and they come out OK (albeit with understated speed and range) at 0.75 or more - Even the recognised as overloaded destroyers the Allen M Sumners.

Ian

www.springsharp.com

oh,man...there goes my Z44 design...

thanks for the input, Ian . Guess we should have a talk here about future destroyer designs, then

WesWorld destroyers will probably have to stick to the 0.50, since so many of them already do...

Here's mine:
1923 - 0.61
1926 - 0.57
1931 - 0.57
1939 - 0.54

Quoted

albeit with understated speed and range

And how do those designs end up when using the given speed and range? I tried to sim the Shimakaze with its 40 knots and 5000nm range at 18 knots (data located here was used) and got to a hull strength of -0.02. I know that SS isn't suited to sim small ships, but I'd like to sim my DDs with speed that is reasonably similar to what real designs are, even if that means that the shp is much higher and SS shows that the engines do not fit into the hull. You may have noticed that with that small PT boat design I sent to you. While I simmed it completely incorrect and errors obviously had occured in the calculations, I did get the speed of a 50 ton boat up to 41 knots at an overall hullstrength of 0.51 which was what I was aiming for when looking at the ELCO 77'. The BC is too low, the shp is 10 times as much as it should be and the engines do not fit into the hull at all, but the speed was there.
One could use the actual shp for the historical designs rather than the actual speed (SS sims a speed of 35.966 knots at 75,000shp), but in case of the Shimakaze sim even that drops the hull strength below 0.50 (with seaboat rating at 0.70). And what will be the actual speed of the destroyer be? I could say that the actual speed of my destroyer X at 50,000 shp is 36 knots but another person might state the speed of an almost identical ship at 33 knots. There is nothing there yet to determine that. That will probably start discussions. Those discussions could escalate and if one is not careful it will only get worse.


(Note that I did not use a transom stern for the sim, since the Shimakaze did not have one)

A DDs speed is its most important feature in my eyes.

I stick to the 0,5...

I agree with you, Hooman.
Still, we could go for the 0.75 hullstrength, but we would need to determine a speed modifier. Maybe multiply the destroyer's speed by 1.1 or 1.15. I think that 1.2 would be too much. The multiplier could be determined by the size of the vessel.
In case of the next design, the simmed speed of the destroyer is 32 knots, but the actual speed would be 32 *1.1 = 35.2 knots. It's best to add this speed directly below (or behind) the sim speed. This way, the destroyer's most important feature would be kept.
1.15 gives us 36.8 knots and using 1.2 will result in a speed of 38.4 knots.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

Asashio, Japan Destroyer laid down 1931

Displacement:
1,523 t light; 1,589 t standard; 1,719 t normal; 1,823 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
343.89 ft / 335.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 14.03 ft (normal load)
104.82 m / 102.11 m x 9.75 m x 4.28 m

Armament:
6 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (3x2 guns), 36.00lbs / 16.33kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
18 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (6x3 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 255 lbs / 116 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
9 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 29,248 shp / 21,819 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 235 tons

Complement:
133 - 173

Cost:
£0.821 million / $3.284 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 31 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 37 tons, 2.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 37 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 775 tons, 45.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 650 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 196 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
657 lbs / 298 Kg = 18.6 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 14.64 ft / 4.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 33.4 %
Waterplane Area: 6,848 Square feet or 636 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 218 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.65
- Longitudinal: 2.91
- Overall: 0.75
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

Maybe for WesWorld2...

{/broken record act}

A "speed modifier" might still be necessary, since even with correct SHP SS understates the speed a bit...but I agree with keeping the current hull-strength limits for the current sim.

Keep it the same. Our DDs are still slow however.

Perhaps we need a new destroyer and light ships sim program?

I'd say keep all pre 1930 DD designs at .50 and after 1930 use Ians rule.

Well that would give us a few sim years to work out the bugs.

A weak hull is a weak hull.

It will show up in combat ; )

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
I'd say keep all pre 1930 DD designs at .50 and after 1930 use Ians rule.

No good idea, too difficult and not really logical. What if you lay down a class of DDs in 1928 (hs 0,5) with 2 units laid down each year until you 8 ships? Four of the ships would have to have hs 0,75...

Let´s keep it simply. As Ian stated with a hs of 0,75 SS will give a speed too slow. So this is not an option for DDs which are already slower in WesWorld than historically because of the known problems. And that is with hs 0,5!

The 0.75 hull strength minimum for destroyers can be discussed for WesWorld II. For this one, lets keep things as they are.

The best option would be to keep working on the program until it can do accurate destroyers at full speed. Until then we are stuck I suppose with what we have to work with.

I think Wes meant ships designed from 1930 onwards, not laid down from a pre-1930 design.

You are correct sir.